Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xaxxat · 05-31-2006, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUmike

It seems people around here will do anything in order to not admit that Jesus may have had a good idea here and there.

Too bad he didn't personally write them down so we'd know what the hell they were... :huh:

Boro Nut · 05-31-2006, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

The trouble with the Sermon on the Mount is that so much of it is obvious crap. The meek will not inherit the earth....

I thought nuclear physicists had been concluded he was clearly referring to cockroaches.

Boro Nut

Julian · 05-31-2006, 09:31 AM

The problem I have with the beatitudes is that they are all about being rewarded. If you are/do this then you shall receive... It would have been better if he talked about being good for its own sake. I mean, what's so great about doing something if you are essentially getting paid?

How about 'Blessed are the merciful because it is the right thing to do.'

If the world chooses to reward, fine, but that shouldn't be the reason for doing things if one is truly looking for great qualities.

And what's so great about being meek or poor in spirit that it needs to be rewarded?

Julian

Julian · 05-31-2006, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

The meek will not inherit the earth, and, if by some chance they did, some fucker with a gun would soon take it off them.

Someone once said, "Those who beat their swords into plowshares will be ruled by those who don't."

Julian

Jedi Mind Trick · 05-31-2006, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

I don't believe any ancient text teaches loving ones enemy. This was sui generis then, and frankly is pretty unique now. I bet you don't think you should love your enemy, right? That's how challenging this teaching is.

The 1st century Stoic philosopher Musonius did:
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../musonius.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Carrier

Like Jesus, Musonius preached charity (Discourse 19), declaring that "to help many people" is "much more commendable than living a life of luxury." But unlike Jesus, he also emphasized the importance of civic duty as well (Discourse 14). Again like Jesus, Musonius preached a concept of pacifism and forgiveness (Discourse 10),

for to scheme how to bite back the biter and to return evil for evil is the act not of a human being but of a wild beast, which is incapable of reasoning that the majority of wrongs are done to men through ignorance and misunderstanding, from which man will cease as soon as he has been taught,

and his student, Epictetus, relates this example of a parable used by Musonius which exhibits this concept of forgiveness, which is in my opinion wiser and more sophisticated than that of Jesus:

When [Lycurgus of Sparta] had been blinded in one eye by one of his fellow-citizens and had received the young man at the hands of the people to punish as he saw fit, he did not choose to do this, but trained him instead and made a good man of him, and afterward escorted him to the public theatre. And when the [Spartans] regarded him with amazement, he said: "This man I received from you an insolent and violent creature; I return him to you a reasonable man and a good citizen." (Fragment 39)

But I'll bet he stole his ethic from Jesus, right?

pharoah · 05-31-2006, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUmike

Well maybe you can point out to me where it does. I just don't see it. Maybe I'm missing something.

I treat those who are good with goodness,
And I also treat those who are not good with goodness.

The sage is saying that he treats everyone the same, with goodness. Wouldn't that include his enemies? And isn't he implying that his followers should emulate his example?

RUmike · 05-31-2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

I treat those who are good with goodness,
And I also treat those who are not good with goodness.

The sage is saying that he treats everyone the same, with goodness. Wouldn't that include his enemies? And isn't he implying that his followers should emulate his example?

Yes but treating enemies with goodness does not entail loving them.

Jedi Mind Trick · 05-31-2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUmike

Yes but treating enemies with goodness does not entail loving them.

Quit spliting hairs.

Steven Carr · 05-31-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

Frankly, I would be a lot more impressed with this alleged saying from Jesus if he had practiced it. Instead he is quoted as saying things like "bring my enemies before me so I can slay them", "I came not to bring peace but a sword", "I came to set brother against brother", threatening towns that rejected his disciples message with a fate worse than Sodom and Gomarrah, and threatening unbelievers with hellfire. Don't get me started on his alleged future activities in the Book of Revelations.

I think it was best summed up by something I read on another message board :-

'If I were to pay attention to the rest of the Bible I would have to say that there is nothing I can do to make God stop loving me, not even touching the Ark of the Covenant. However, touching the ark is obviously enough to make God kill me even if He didn't stop loving me.'

Jedi Mind Trick · 05-31-2006, 10:23 AM

Besides, Jesus, who said to “love your enemies,” will nevertheless, according to the majority position, torture his enemies forever.

Practice what you preach, anyone?

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05-31-2006, 09:31 AM	#23
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	The problem I have with the beatitudes is that they are all about being rewarded. If you are/do this then you shall receive... It would have been better if he talked about being good for its own sake. I mean, what's so great about doing something if you are essentially getting paid? How about 'Blessed are the merciful because it is the right thing to do.' If the world chooses to reward, fine, but that shouldn't be the reason for doing things if one is truly looking for great qualities. And what's so great about being meek or poor in spirit that it needs to be rewarded? Julian

05-31-2006, 10:23 AM	#30
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Besides, Jesus, who said to “love your enemies,” will nevertheless, according to the majority position, torture his enemies forever. Practice what you preach, anyone?

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