Freethought & Rationalism Archive

chorranca · 01-06-2012, 01:23 AM

So, was Josephus a cheater?

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...885421,00.html

Toto · 01-06-2012, 01:53 AM

This is old news. Search for Rachel Elior in the archives.

Toto · 01-06-2012, 11:04 AM

Archived thread from 2009: "Essenes never existed, were a Josephan invention, claims Rachel Elior"

aa5874 · 01-06-2012, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

So, was Josephus a cheater?

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...885421,00.html

It is hopelessy flawed LOGIC to claim Josephus invented the Essenes when PHILO and PLINY the Elder wrote about them.

PHILO wrote about the Essenes BEFORE Josephus and Pliny the Elder did NOT use Josephus for his references to the Essenes.

Pliny even claimed the Essenes existed for THOUSANDS of years.

Natural History attributed to Pliny the Elder

See http://essene.com/History/AncientHis...ndEssenes.html

Quote:

"To the west (of the Dead Sea) the Essenes have put the necessary distance between themselves and the insalubrious shore.

They are a people unique of its kind and admirable beyond all others in the whole world; without women and renouncing love entirely, without money and having for company only palm trees.

Owing to the throng of newcomers, this people is daily reborn in equal number; indeed, those whom, wearied by the fluctuations of fortune, life leads to adopt their customs, stream in in great numbers.

Thus, unbeleivable though this may seem, for thousands of centuries a people has existed which is eternal yet into which no one is born: so fruitful for them is the repentance which others feel for their past lives!"...

It is just MIND-BOGGLING how so-called experts can make claims that are so ridiculous.

chorranca · 01-07-2012, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

So, was Josephus a cheater?

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...885421,00.html

It is hopelessy flawed LOGIC to claim Josephus invented the Essenes when PHILO and PLINY the Elder wrote about them.

PHILO wrote about the Essenes BEFORE Josephus and Pliny the Elder did NOT use Josephus for his references to the Essenes.

Pliny even claimed the Essenes existed for THOUSANDS of years.

Natural History attributed to Pliny the Elder

See http://essene.com/History/AncientHis...ndEssenes.html

Quote:

"To the west (of the Dead Sea) the Essenes have put the necessary distance between themselves and the insalubrious shore.

They are a people unique of its kind and admirable beyond all others in the whole world; without women and renouncing love entirely, without money and having for company only palm trees.

Owing to the throng of newcomers, this people is daily reborn in equal number; indeed, those whom, wearied by the fluctuations of fortune, life leads to adopt their customs, stream in in great numbers.

Thus, unbeleivable though this may seem, for thousands of centuries a people has existed which is eternal yet into which no one is born: so fruitful for them is the repentance which others feel for their past lives!"...

It is just MIND-BOGGLING how so-called experts can make claims that are so ridiculous.

Well, when Pliny speaks of thousands of centuries, doesn't he disqualify himself from objective credibility, I wonder?

Shantanu · 01-07-2012, 06:39 AM

I thought that Essenes were instrumental in writing the story of Jesus Christ and developing the Chaldean Hebrew Numerology at the same time.

aa5874 · 01-07-2012, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

So, was Josephus a cheater?

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...885421,00.html

It is hopelessy flawed LOGIC to claim Josephus invented the Essenes when PHILO and PLINY the Elder wrote about them.

PHILO wrote about the Essenes BEFORE Josephus and Pliny the Elder did NOT use Josephus for his references to the Essenes.

Pliny even claimed the Essenes existed for THOUSANDS of years.

Natural History attributed to Pliny the Elder

See http://essene.com/History/AncientHis...ndEssenes.html

Quote:

"To the west (of the Dead Sea) the Essenes have put the necessary distance between themselves and the insalubrious shore.

They are a people unique of its kind and admirable beyond all others in the whole world; without women and renouncing love entirely, without money and having for company only palm trees.

Owing to the throng of newcomers, this people is daily reborn in equal number; indeed, those whom, wearied by the fluctuations of fortune, life leads to adopt their customs, stream in in great numbers.

Thus, unbeleivable though this may seem, for thousands of centuries a people has existed which is eternal yet into which no one is born: so fruitful for them is the repentance which others feel for their past lives!"...

It is just MIND-BOGGLING how so-called experts can make claims that are so ridiculous.

Well, when Pliny speaks of thousands of centuries, doesn't he disqualify himself from objective credibility, I wonder?

How can you determine that Pliny disqualifies himself? Please state how Pliny was able to claim that the Essenes was a people that existed for "thousands of centuries"?

We know that it is not credible that Josephus invented the Essenes since he was NOT the first and only writer of them.

chorranca · 01-07-2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

Well, when Pliny speaks of thousands of centuries, doesn't he disqualify himself from objective credibility, I wonder?

How can you determine that Pliny disqualifies himself? Please state how Pliny was able to claim that the Essenes was a people that existed for "thousands of centuries"?

We know that it is not credible that Josephus invented the Essenes since he was NOT the first and only writer of them.

Don't understand your question, sorry.
What would be his meaning for "thousands of centuries" - that's what I asked [if he ever wrote such nonsense, that is - maybe it is an "interpolation" as it were, who knows, since handwritten history is always suspicious or fraudulent - take the history of Jesus as an example].
It is impossible that that was an objectively graphic presentation to explain the existence of the Essenes.
I don't really care whether the Essenes existed or not; none of my business.
What struck me was that if they did not exist, that would be one more nice point to discredit the gospel of Jesus Christ.

aa5874 · 01-07-2012, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

Well, when Pliny speaks of thousands of centuries, doesn't he disqualify himself from objective credibility, I wonder?

How can you determine that Pliny disqualifies himself? Please state how Pliny was able to claim that the Essenes was a people that existed for "thousands of centuries"?

We know that it is not credible that Josephus invented the Essenes since he was NOT the first and only writer of them.

Don't understand your question, sorry.
What would be his meaning for "thousands of centuries" - that's what I asked [if he ever wrote such nonsense, that is - maybe it is an "interpolation" as it were, who knows, since handwritten history is always suspicious or fraudulent - take the history of Jesus as an example].
It is impossible that that was an objectively graphic presentation to explain the existence of the Essenes.
I don't really care whether the Essenes existed or not; none of my business.
What struck me was that if they did not exist, that would be one more nice point to discredit the gospel of Jesus Christ.

How can you determine the Pliny wrote nonsense about the Essenes when you cannot say how he derived the information?

Did he get his information from the Essenes?

Did he get his information from a written source?

It is impossible for Pliny the Elder to have disqualified himself once he was reporting information that was available at the time of writing.

chorranca · 01-07-2012, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorranca

Don't understand your question, sorry.
What would be his meaning for "thousands of centuries" - that's what I asked [if he ever wrote such nonsense, that is - maybe it is an "interpolation" as it were, who knows, since handwritten history is always suspicious or fraudulent - take the history of Jesus as an example].
It is impossible that that was an objectively graphic presentation to explain the existence of the Essenes.
I don't really care whether the Essenes existed or not; none of my business.
What struck me was that if they did not exist, that would be one more nice point to discredit the gospel of Jesus Christ.

How can you determine the Pliny wrote nonsense about the Essenes when you cannot say how he derived the information?

Did he get his information from the Essenes?

Did he get his information from a written source?

It is impossible for Pliny the Elder to have disqualified himself once he was reporting information that was available at the time of writing.

Ah, OK, now I understand - and you're right; it is very suspicious, anyway.

01-06-2012, 01:23 AM	#1
chorranca Banned Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Right Here; before was Over There. Posts: 347	No Essenes existed? This is new! So, was Josephus a cheater? http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...885421,00.html

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01-06-2012, 01:53 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This is old news. Search for Rachel Elior in the archives.

01-06-2012, 11:04 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Archived thread from 2009: "Essenes never existed, were a Josephan invention, claims Rachel Elior"

01-07-2012, 06:39 AM	#6
Shantanu Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: England, United Kingdom Posts: 10,786	I thought that Essenes were instrumental in writing the story of Jesus Christ and developing the Chaldean Hebrew Numerology at the same time.

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