Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 02-12-2013, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

We have total denial of the Jewishness of the therapeutae from some .....

[TOTAL DENIAL]

The hypothesis (drawn from following the author of "VC" - Philo or otherwise) that the
therapeutae were a ubiquitous Jewish monastic sect of the 1st century, produces paradoxes.

[/TOTAL DENIAL]

mountainman · 02-12-2013, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

If he had instead written this was a group of therapeutae HOBBITS we would not be having this discussion.

Given the subject of this discussion, all Philo would had have written in "VC" even one time is 'these Jews'.

Instead he praises them, but always distances 'them'. Never once is what 'they' are doing 'our practice'.
There is no 'we' to be found, or these are 'our kinsmen', but invariably it is a -distant- and unidentified someone else 'Theraputae', an -alienated- some other group that is doing these things Philo describes.

Philo is telling us over and over and over that his own religious practices are NOT those of 'these' Theraputae.

As I posted earlier, the phrasing of "VC" literally shouts in paragraph after paragraph; 'The practices of -these- 'Theraputae' are NOT ours.'

Thanks for taking the time to look into this Shesh.

Things don't add up with the official story.

I am sorry you (and others) have to endure the ridicule of those who think they know the official answers to this and other official questions.

But I think we all know by now life is a mixed bag. Be well.

.

stephan huller · 02-12-2013, 10:52 PM

Countdown to 1000! Almost a thousand posts and what have the naysayers produced?

1. Philo never uses the specific word 'Jew' or 'Jewish' to describe the therapeutae
2. pagans and Christians were also called therapeutai
3. Shesh doesn't like the therapeutai

Wow that's some case against the identification of the group as Jewish.

Sheshbazzar · 02-12-2013, 11:01 PM

Yeah, they say we are nuts ....but in matter after matter they fail to confront and deal with the actual content of this text.

Philo describes these Theraputae as though 'they' and 'their' religious practices are alien to him and his religious practices.

Why would he do that consistently throughout this entire text if he viewed them simply as being fellow Jews practicing the very same Jewish religion as himself?

Its like he were a visitor reporting on the happy fruits of Jonestown circa '77.

Which introduces another thought, -did- Philo ever actually go to out there 'beyond the Mareotic lake' and personally meet with these people?

The way the text is composed, I find it very doubtful. He mentions no personal experiences among them, and gives not the name of a single person or leader met. ....and yet he admires them so much?

I tend to think what we are seeing in "VC" is nothing more highly embellished and fictionalized hearsay.
There may have been Jews out there but it appears that they were strangers to Philo.

maryhelena · 02-12-2013, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

If he had instead written this was a group of therapeutae HOBBITS we would not be having this discussion.

Given the subject of this discussion, all Philo would had have written in "VC" even one time is 'these Jews'.

Instead he praises them, but always distances 'them'. Never once is what 'they' are doing 'our practice'.
There is no 'we' to be found, or these are 'our kinsmen', but invariably it is a -distant- and unidentified someone else 'Theraputae', an -alienated- some other group that is doing these things Philo describes.

Philo is telling us over and over and over that his own religious practices are NOT those of 'these' Theraputae.

As I posted earlier, the phrasing of "VC" literally shouts in paragraph after paragraph; 'The practices of -these- 'Theraputae' are NOT ours.'

Thanks for taking the time to look into this Shesh.

Things don't add up with the official story.

I am sorry you (and others) have to endure the ridicule of those who think they know the official answers to this and other official questions.

But I think we all know by now life is a mixed bag. Be well.

.

Hi, Pete

I've not got into this discussion for two reasons. 1) because of the amount of ridicule certain posters bring to the debate. 2) I happen to agree with Rachel Elior re the Essenes not being a historical group but a philosophical ideal of Philo.

If this is so, i.e. that the Essenes are not historical - then Philo's other group, the 'therapeutae', are probably also not historical. I mean really - if the gospel writers can tell stories about JC and his group of followers - why on earth can't Philo also tell philosophical stories??

Anyway, Pete - I'll run before the downpour of ridicule starts....

:wave:

Clivedurdle · 02-12-2013, 11:12 PM

Were the only forgers xians?

stephan huller · 02-12-2013, 11:17 PM

But why the references to Miriam, Moses, Israel, the holiness of the seventh day, the 364 day liturgical year structured around a sevenfold pentacontad cycle, the relationship to the Essenes, the approval of Philo of their views? With respect to the question of whether Philo made up the group - that's a separate question. I don't see why this is necessary, likely or probable. But even still he is clearly still dreaming up a Jewish sectarian group. I just can't see what benefit Philo derives from making up a group.

aa5874 · 02-12-2013, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Countdown to 1000! Almost a thousand posts and what have the naysayers produced?

1. Philo never uses the specific word 'Jew' or 'Jewish' to describe the therapeutae
2. pagans and Christians were also called therapeutai
3. Shesh doesn't like the therapeutai

Wow that's some case against the identification of the group as Jewish.

You are blatantly mis-representing the facts.

You seem not to understand that people can read what has been posted and also read "On the Contemplative Life"

maryhelena · 02-12-2013, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But why the references to Miriam, Moses, Israel, the holiness of the seventh day, the 364 day liturgical year structured around a sevenfold pentacontad cycle, the relationship to the Essenes, the approval of Philo of their views? With respect to the question of whether Philo made up the group - that's a separate question. I don't see why this is necessary, likely or probable. But even still he is clearly still dreaming up a Jewish sectarian group. I just can't see what benefit Philo derives from making up a group.

Why?

I'll suggest one reason. Philo is taking a philosophical look to the future. A future in which his 'Jewish' group, his Essenes (albeit a 'Jewish' group that does not marry......) and his group of 'therapeutae' (his mixed group of Jews and Pagans/Geniles) coexist. And is that not what we have today - Jews and Christians. (some Jews becoming Christians...)......and that looks to be that Philo sees a heresy, a breakaway, from Jewish practices on the cards......

Neither group, Philo's Essenes or his therapeutae, existing in real time, in historical time - but only in his 'dreaming', his philosophical ideals.

And yes, that does present questions re Philo's involvement with whatever theological/philosophical developments were going on in Alexandria during his lifetime. But, perhaps, these questions need to be asked anyway....

aa5874 · 02-12-2013, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But why the references to Miriam, Moses, Israel, the holiness of the seventh day, the 364 day liturgical year structured around a sevenfold pentacontad cycle, the relationship to the Essenes, the approval of Philo of their views? With respect to the question of whether Philo made up the group - that's a separate question. I don't see why this is necessary, likely or probable. But even still he is clearly still dreaming up a Jewish sectarian group. I just can't see what benefit Philo derives from making up a group.

Philo claimed the Therapeutae were found in every district of Egypt and never mentioned that a single Therapeutae was found anywhere in Judea.

On the Contemplative Life

Quote:

... Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt, in every one of the districts, or nomi as they are called, and especially around Alexandria...

There is NO mention at all of any Jew in the sect of the Therapeutae in any Jewish writing in the 1st century.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-12-2013, 10:52 PM	#943
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Countdown to 1000! Almost a thousand posts and what have the naysayers produced? 1. Philo never uses the specific word 'Jew' or 'Jewish' to describe the therapeutae 2. pagans and Christians were also called therapeutai 3. Shesh doesn't like the therapeutai Wow that's some case against the identification of the group as Jewish.

02-12-2013, 11:01 PM	#944
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Yeah, they say we are nuts ....but in matter after matter they fail to confront and deal with the actual content of this text. Philo describes these Theraputae as though 'they' and 'their' religious practices are alien to him and his religious practices. Why would he do that consistently throughout this entire text if he viewed them simply as being fellow Jews practicing the very same Jewish religion as himself? Its like he were a visitor reporting on the happy fruits of Jonestown circa '77. Which introduces another thought, -did- Philo ever actually go to out there 'beyond the Mareotic lake' and personally meet with these people? The way the text is composed, I find it very doubtful. He mentions no personal experiences among them, and gives not the name of a single person or leader met. ....and yet he admires them so much? I tend to think what we are seeing in "VC" is nothing more highly embellished and fictionalized hearsay. There may have been Jews out there but it appears that they were strangers to Philo.

02-12-2013, 11:12 PM	#946
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Were the only forgers xians?

02-12-2013, 11:17 PM	#947
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But why the references to Miriam, Moses, Israel, the holiness of the seventh day, the 364 day liturgical year structured around a sevenfold pentacontad cycle, the relationship to the Essenes, the approval of Philo of their views? With respect to the question of whether Philo made up the group - that's a separate question. I don't see why this is necessary, likely or probable. But even still he is clearly still dreaming up a Jewish sectarian group. I just can't see what benefit Philo derives from making up a group.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.