JaredM

In general, I don't really have a spiritual side, simply because I am unable to think of things along those lines. Believe me, I have tried (especially when I was younger) and I came to the realization that it is all just so much self-deception. I've never believed in the supernatural, which in my mind is just natural phenomena waiting to be studied & explained. I've never believed in an afterlife either, and I don't even consider death to be all that "scary" a subject. And with regards to the existence of God or some higher power, I scratched my head over that question for many years before finally deciding that the likelihood of anything resembling deities (as most religions view them) is so remote as to be negligible. Hence, I consider my own position to be somewhere between strong agnostic and weak atheist. But I prefer to just consider myself a free thinker.

Anyway, I have seen some people on this board say things like "it would be nice if there was some kind of deity watching out for us" or "I wish there were some type of god". My response is: why? Yes, one could argue that life sucks and bad stuff happens in the world. And yes, some of this bad stuff is totally needless and preventable (like the war in Iraq and the whole shitstrom in New Orleans right now). But would having some type of deity lording over really be so great? Would you really want to be watched all the time, or being told what to do by some trancendental entity? Isn't asking for something like this simply trading freedom for security? Doesn't religion simply reinforce the mentality that we are all just helpless moral infants unable to fend for ourselves and fit only to take orders?

Theists like to point out that if the atheistic view of life is true, then we are nothing more than animals stuck on a water covered rock, circling an ordinary yellow star. My response to this is: GOOD. That's the way it should be. I take comfort in the fact that life has no inherent meaning, that morality is primarily situational, and that this whole fucked up rollercoaster ride finally comes to a permanent end when for each of us at death. I am left to my own devices, free to help myself and tend to those close to me without any sort of otherwordly obligations. I define the meaning of my own life--I don't need some fucking book to do it for me. When I make a mistake, I am solely responsible for the consequences; likewise, if I succeed, I can rightfully take credit for my accomplishments without alluding to supernatural powers.

The question I have for all of you is: is my view of the world any more intellectually honest than that of the average theist? Am I correct in failing to ascribe any spiritual significance to anything, or am I just being a sneering nihilist? Are there some patterns or meanings in life which I am failing to see, or am I simply rightfully skeptical?

I ask anyone, regardless of beliefs, to give an honest critique of my statement here. :wave:

Ok, I'm done ranting now.

--Jared

lynx

I prefer the idea that stuff happens for no reason. The thought that my sister and mother were killed (or anyone else) for some "plan", or that something could have saved them but chose NOT to, sickens me.

Berthold

That's what we are from a theist's point of view: Values like love, beauty, compassion come from elsewhere; if we are not "saved", we are "spirtually dead".
From a rational materialist's point of view, these values are ours.

Clete

When bad things happen to me, I definitely take comfort in thinking that it's not a part of some cosmic plot. So I'm in agreement with you.

Ramen

There's nothing substantial in conceptualizing reality. Yet people have the mentality that reality is dependant on what they're able to conceptualize. No, reality is NOT dependant on what we believe it to be. It is what it is and will still exist when earth is no longer inhabitable for humans and their concepts of reality.

orac

"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."

Gotta love babylon 5.


Incidentally, I suspect that when people say they wish there was a god looking out for us, there's the implicit assumption that it would be a benevolent deity, so all the terrible things that happen to people would be avoided, or at the worst, everyone affected would know the reasons and agree in advance, rather than just have to hope that all the suffering and pain is for a reason they'ld support.

JaredM

This is a type of refutation of the "just world" hypothesis: the idea that everything happens because it is warranted. Honestly, if one looks objectively at the world, this cannot possibly be true--how could the people stariving in Africa or currently drowning in Louisiana have "deserved" their fate?

--Jared

His Noodly Appendage

The rampant unfairness of the universe is the entire justification for my moral code.

If life were inherently fair, if the books would always balance, if evil never prevailed, if the bad guys always got their comeuppance and the victims were rewarded for their forbearance and suffering, if the evil we did could be undone, if guilt could be erased and sin atoned...

If all of those things were true, I'd have no reason to be moral whatsoever. Hell, put it all on my tab. I'll pay the price, and nobody will be any the worse off. It'll all come out right in the end. No harm, no foul, right?

But the world is NOT fair. Sparrows fall unheeded and unloved. Nice guys finish last, and get stabbed in the knee when they finally get there. The universe doesn't actually hate you; if simply doesn't give a flying fuck about your existence. However, as there's a zillion horrible outcomes for every good one, statistically speaking, it may as well be out to get you. Incredible bastards die rich, happy and old, after shitting all over the people that are in their way. The evil we do lives on, and no amount of regret or forgiveness or guilt or penance can ever undo it. The world SUCKS, and we're all going to die.

And the only thing - the ONLY TINY THING that will ever decrease the degree to which the world sucks, is people being gratuitously nice beyond thier own advantage. Is people accepting this fact, and making other people's welfare THEIR PROBLEM - because if they don't, nobody else will.

So the lack of a god makes the world a better place around me, if nothign else.

As for actual personal comfort, I don't know that there is much to be had, per se. There's the dignity of actually being an adult, though - and I think that's worth a lot.