Cheerful Charlie

Romans 11, why do the Jews not accept Jesus? God hardens their hearts not to. Free will means nothing to God. If God hates evil, and torture of children is evil, why not eliminate it by making all men good? Does this silly set of bible tall tales make any sense at all? The Quran teaches predestination and is every bit as stupid.

If God can eliminate evil, and free will as a defense is destroyed by Romans and other verses in the Bible, and if God does not, God is evil. The bible is supposedly God's revelationtoman,yetifso,it says Godis good, righteous, merciful, just and loving, but that is false, God is a liar and is an
evil liar to boot.

Why not instead of hardening the hearts of the Jews to not believe and be damned, but to believe and be saved? Why not then all men? Why then is there evil? If evil exists, it exists only because god wants us evil and damned.

How do we know then, that goodmen burn in hell and torturers of children go to heaven? Since God lies,andis evil, we can be sure of nothing.

Quite some religion, yes?

Cheerful Charlie

stp2007

Because I have the opinion that some believers pick and choose which parts of the bible they interpret literally or metaphorically. Furthermore on any given day their literal/metaphoric decision can change to suit their purpose. If the bible is the literal word of god and truth then theoretically all of it should be true (and of course literal). Therefore ...

Creation in 6 days - true.
World wide flood - true.
Noah's ark - true.
Earth not billions of years old - true.
Slavery, just find and dandy - true.
Treat women as chattel - sure.
Ok to kill someone if they work on Sunday - of course, why not. I'll throw the first stone.
etc., etc., etc.

[Please note I don't actually believe or agree in any of the above statements. See next paragraph.]

Personally, as an atheist, I think the bible is a work of fiction. All of it is a metaphor and none of it is to be taken literally.

On the other hand believers have spent 2000 years with the book and still haven't come to any agreement about its literal and metaphorical elements.

Clouseau

Why is that a problem? I note you live in Quebec, a pretty Catholic area, relatively free from Bible-thumpers, and surely free from the horrors of the brain-dead right-wing politicos of the USA. Can you not leave religionists to pick and choose if they want to, and if that is what they do?

stp2007

I have no issue with what anyone believes if it only affects and pertains to themselves. Once we start dealing with each other on a personal, community and global scale we need rational not irrational beliefs to guide our decisions.

Example, anti gay marriage. Example, supporting an anti-scientific world view such as creationism as a viable alternative to evolution. Example, not teaching and providing contraception in AIDS infected Africa. These issues (which are only the tip of the iceberg) are based on irrational beliefs and they affect all of us in one way or another.

Religion has had its way for a couple of thousand years and I don't think its track record will stand up to serious scrutiny. Daily our world becomes smaller due to technology. Daily problems such as over-population, global warming, energy shortages, species extinction and others grow more critical. Evolution (or God if you believe) has provided us with the intellect and reasoning we have. We need to promote not discourage rational thinking if we are to solve the problems ahead of us as a species.

Back to the topic at hand. It is not rational to believe that the 6 day creation myth, global flood, or Noah's ark are literal events. Doing so promotes irrational thought. This is why I stated initially my wish that the bible clearly defined which parts were meant to be taken literally.

Clouseau

What restrictions are there on same-sex partnerships in Quebec? And what does this issue have to do with with literal/allegorical interpretation of the Bible?

How does this affect anyone practically? Do you think that anyone actually believes in YEC? I don't, because every bit of YEC literature I've ever read, every YECist I've ever met or conversed with, has produced blatant lies that even a twelve-year-old can see through. No-one believes in evolution like a YECist believes in evolution.

How much is this to do with literal/allegorical interpretation of the Bible?

The tip of the iceberg? What else is there that depends on the Bible's literal/allegorical interpretation? Please don't mention the Iraq War.

Not before time.

No more than transubstantiation, the perpetual virginity of Mary and the Book of Mormon, which are all popular Western myths that likewise nobody really believes.

mountainman

If you think the bible is a work of fiction then how do
you think the situation may have possibly come about
that it was put forward, and then accepted, as some
form of authority?

I ask this question in all earnestness since I myself have
spent the last few years investigating the possibility
that it had its official launch, not in the first century,
but the fourth, embodied totally within the Constantine
Bible, which we know was published c.331 CE.

The hypothesis, for believers and acceptors of the "Biblical
Literary Tradition" is that it has been around for almost
2000 years. However the fact remains to be categorically
discounted, that the number of years that believers have
spent searching it for ascii-enlightenment, is not 2000, but
rather only (2007 - 325 = ) 1682 years.

RED DAVE

Why the fuck not? Perhaps the most blatantly self-proclaimed Christian president in US history is trumpeting it as a holy war.

April 26, 2003

Iraq War: Worse Lies Ahead

A Policy of Christian and Jewish Fundamentalism

By SAUL LANDAU

http://www.counterpunch.org/landau04262003.html

RED DAVE

Toto

Because this isn't the Politics Forum, or whatever they're calling it now. We talking about what is or isn't in the Bible.

The last few posts in this thread are tending off course.

Please stick to the topic.

Exciter

I wish that John 21:25 had been expounded on. Instead so many are deluded into picking things that comfort them, or disprove to them that the Scriptures are myths.

stp2007

As far as I know, at the moment, there are no restrictions to same-sex partnerships in Quebec and Canada. However this has been a topic of much public and political debate here for a number of years. Taking up valuable bandwidth and effort on many peoples part on a matter that fundamentally only affects the two people involved. Irrational.

I respectfully disagree. You only have to go as far as this link to find afdave who is a YEC. He is a prolific poster who believes that noah's ark, a 6 day genesis creation, and the great flood are literal events. Reading his posts for the last two months have been a real eye opener and look into an irrational mind. If you desire you can trace afdave's YEC exploits across two years and a number of different forums. Sadly afdave isn't alone. Google Duane Gish a former vice-president of the Institute for Creation Research or Ken Ham who is involved/responsible for the new $27 million dollar creationism museum that opened last month in Kentucky.

As for affecting people practically. When the result of a poll taken last June states 'Two-thirds in the poll said creationism, the idea that God created humans in their present form within the past 10,000 years, is definitely or probably true' my concerns are raised. Raised because with such fundamental lack of scientific knowledge or trust how are these people going to act rationally wrt global warming or an issue such as stem cell research.

OK, I won't.

You've questioned anti-gay marriage and prohibition of contraception (in Africa) as not being good example wrt literal/allegorical interpretations of the Bible. You may be right. I am winging this discussion while trying to work and may not have provided the best examples. I will however stand by the argument that those issues are based on irrational beliefs (which is the core of my lament). Properly dealing with a modern medical crisis such as AIDS in Africa based on the wisdom of men who lived 2000 years ago doesn't seem rational.

It is encouraging to note that one time people used passages from the bible to support slavery and less then equal treatment for women and that over time these practices have changed greatly for the better. Sadly those changes took hundreds if not thousands of years to occur.

God Darwin I hope so.