Anat

spin, how can anyone translate r'em as unicorn when it has to'afot (plural)

CX

Unless one is conversant in the language of the original, these sorts of discussions are mostly fruitless. We should first ask if the translations make sense. Secondly if we find that the translations are reasonable we should look to the original intent as well. Does dragon mean giant magical fire breathing winged lizard or does it mean something more like a cayman lizard or monitor of some kind?

Another point that should be obvious, though worth making nonetheless, is even if we do find exotic mythogical creatures we should hardly be surprised given that the text in question was written in a period preceding the advent of rigorous science. It is evident to even the most casual observer that the Hebrew Tanakh/Xian OT contains numerous fanciful stories as do most of the other religious scriptures of the period.

spin

You'd have to ask the ones who translated it that way, not me. I was pointing out how R)M was handled both by TNK translators and by the rabbis.

What the word means in rabbinic times may not reflect its earlier usage. The LXX and Vulgate translators may have been drunk at the time. Who knows? They are however closer to asking people back then what the term meant. We don't have that prerogative. Both Num 24:8 and Deut 33:17 do make it clear in their contexts, the first has TW(PT while the other has QRNY.

It does suggest though that people who have queries like the one of this thread should consider that the translations are shite and that they can't rely on them because the translators, such as those of the AV, didn't have the right resources to make a dependable translation. A lot of the problems that arise here is through people depending on translations and being let down by the translations. (This is basically what CX says above.)


spin

itsamysteryhuh

The term "Behemoth" could very well be describing an elephant. "Leviathan" may refer to any large and possibly dangerous fish or reptile such as an alligator or crocodile.


Of course, terms such as these may also represent other things as shown below.

Celsus

Leviathan has its roots in the Ugaritic seven-headed dragon lotan (this predates the Babylonian dragon Tiamat, but the primordial fight between a dragon and a god is echoed throughout Mesopotamia (Yahweh and Leviathan, Baal and Leviathan, Anat and the tanninim, Marduk and Tiamat, etc. etc.). Behemoth is a similarly vague primordial creature as demonstrated by 2 Esdras 6:49-52, but which we know less about. The descriptions of both of them vary, so the authors in different times and places may have viewed them quite differently. Job 41's depiction of Leviathan for instance is almost completely naturalised (hence people always picking this passage to try to figure out what Leviathan "really" was), whereas Isaiah 27's depiction sees him as a final cosmic enemy. However, comparing either of them to real creatures such as hippos, elephants, crocodiles, dinosaurs, and dragons (oops) is grossly anachronistic.

Joel

ohwilleke

For what its worth, a "basilisk" is every bit as mythological a creature as a "cocktrice". There is no such reptile (although some reptile may form a basis of the myth), and this was a mythical creature which existed outside the Jewish tradition (Pliny, for example, discussed it) and may have had its origins in Egypt. See http://webhome.idirect.com/~donlong/...l/Basilisk.htm By tradition, a basilisk of a reptilian like creature that can turn people to stone. Of course, if the implication is that what is really refered to is some form of poisonous reptile, it could be.

On the other hand, I'd be wary of taking Isaiah, which is a prophetic book to start with too literally.

On the other hand, if I wanted to be tart, I could note that there is more independent historical confirmation of the existence of basilisks than there is of most Biblical events.

Revelations, of course, clearly intends to invoke fantastic creatures in its narration, and is also a prophetic book which can be read in allegorical terms.

Eldarion Lathria

The basilisk was hatched from an egg layed by a seven year old rooster, and sat on by a serpent. No monster is so well attested by the ancients as the basilisk, but the roosters have stopped laying.

Eldarion Lathria

TheBigKahoona

I understand that there are many mythological stories implied by the word "Basilisk" and "cockatrice", but couldn't it also mean something along the lines of say a Komodo DRAGOn?