Elijah

Not if you are reading something that is obviously artistic or poetic exaggeration of metaphors or representations of this or that. You understand what the art/wording is representing. Like i don't feel it's correct to understand demons being like little gremlins seen in art instead of mental memes seen in reality.

Not that everything is a philosophical treaties but, how many non philosophical Christian writers do you think contributed to the early formation of the ideology and who are the best examples of this?

aa5874

So, what do you know about Jesus that is true?

These are what I know are false.

His conception, his birth, his baptism where the Holy Ghost entered into him like doves, his temptation, his miracles where he used spit to make people see, feeding thousands with a few loaves of bread, turning water into wine, the raising of a dead man after being dead for four days, the walking on water, the transfiguration, the resurrection, the ascension and much more.

The biography of Jesus is packed with fiction, I must consider Jesus fiction until some other credible source can account for him.

Elijah

The sacrifice is what I center the historical core on. Whoever’s death started the line of martyrs that convinced people that his claim had merit. The stories surrounding his life aren’t what convinced people he was the messiah it was the imitation of his self sacrifice. Some try to frame it as if there was no literal resurrection then why did the early apostles die for their beliefs when in my opinion is was the dying for their beliefs that made others believe they really did see something when in reality they were just parroting their leader's actions.

aa5874

You still have not told me what you know about Jesus that is true.

Which apostles really did die?

Tell me what you know that is true about the apostles?

People used to believe in Apollo. There were Temples of Apollo. Apollo was a myth.

People used to believe in Serapis, and Serapis told people that if Vespasian spat in their eyes that they would see, but Serapis was a myth.

Just tell me what you know is true about Jesus. It is said he used to spit in people's to make them see, born of a virgin, without sexual union the offspring of the Holy Ghost and ascended through the clouds.

The biography of Jesus is filled with fiction, and it is for that very reason I consider the creature a mythical fable, until credible evidence can be found.

Elijah

What can you know(looking past the philosophical implication of the question) about anything from 2000 years ago? To ask for what I know is to fail to see what this conversation is about and just a pitiful diversionary tactic to distract from the half thought out theory of yours.
I think all of them died unless Jesus was right about some not tasting death there. I think you mean which apostles really martyred themselves and again that’s failing to see the point in order to play holocaust denier. Do you understand how the Christ meme spread by the imitation of self-sacrifice or not? You can argue all day who really martyred themselves and who didn’t but do you understand how the meme spread?
Tell me you know how ridicules asking these types of questions are.
Now try understanding Jesus as a messiah claimant and get back to me. We get that you can see similarities in the story around Jesus and other myths but you’re still not bothering seeing the point of what is going on.
I understand why you see it as fiction, because you are unfamiliar with religion in any other form, politically or philosophically; you only know it in its cartoon form.

aa5874

Not so at all. You are the one who refuses to state information or give evidence that support your position and try to distract by making irrelevant statements.

I have already provided with the information that I know are false or fiction from 2000 years ago. I will repeat them in case you have forgotten.

The conception, the birth, the baptism where the Holy Ghost entered Jesus like doves, the temptation, the miracles where Jesus used spit to make people see, the raising of the dead, the walking on water, tirning water to wine, feeding thousands with a few loaves, the transfiguration where dead propets were brought to life, the resurrection and the ascension through the clouds.

How did the meme spread about Apollo, Zeus, Dionysius, Jupiter, and how did the meme spread about Serapis? People used to pray to Apollo and Serapis, even Serapis told people to make Vespasian spit in their eyes and to touch them to make them walk. Now, Apollo, Zeus, Jupiter, Dionysius and Serapis are all myths.

The people who claimed Jesus was a messiah also claimed he was born without sexual union, born of a virgin, the offspring of the Holy Ghost and ascended through the clouds witnessed by his mother, and his followers.

You don't bother with the facts.
You appear to be unfamiliar with the mythical Gods of antiquity. You seem not to realise that Jesus as described is similar to the myths of the Greeks as stated by Trypho in the writings of Justin Martyr.

His birth and methods of healing are similar to the mythical gods of antiquity.

You are the one who thinks that a character who was born without sexual union has an historical core even after the outrageous story that he was witnessed going physically through the clouds.

And I can predict, if you respond to my post, that you will never supply any information or evidence to support your position.

rlogan

Obviously useless to engage with someone too lazy to even look for him.

Just wanted to show it is wilfull ignorance on your part, and how extreme the laziness is.


You are too lazy to even look. I guess the question is why are you so lazy. Proud of your ignorance, seems to me. Smug about it.

Heh. Plenty of records of people not anywhere near as notable as the gospel Jesus, but you are too lazy to look at them even when put under your nose.

You aren't very articulate so a person has to patch this together for you.

Plenty of evidence in Josephus you are straining hard to pretend is not there.

Well obviously you read none of this literature so what is the point of discussing anything with an ignorant person. You don't even know who Josephus was after I have already told you.

I should have known better.

Elijah

You are asking irrelevant questions just to dodge the giant holes in your theory. Questions that can’t be answered with any certainty and you know that… at least I hope you have some awareness of this.

You don’t know any of these events didn’t happen because you weren’t there. You assume giving your experience in reality that they are impossible but you don’t know that for sure. I’m not arguing that the miracles did happen but you don’t know. You could be sitting in a pod with a wire jacked into the back of your head feeding you a virtual reality while robots use you as a living battery... you don't know anything for certain.

So the answer to the question is that you don’t understand how the meme spread at all and are now retreating to other gods to see if you can understand how their ideas spread.
I said get back to me when you understand the story as a messiah claimant. You don’t bother with understanding the most basic premise of the story you’ve spent years discussing and arguing against.
So??? Because they made him out to be similar to the gods doesn’t mean there wasn’t a historical core especially if there is reason to raise him up to a god like level.

You seem slightly familiar with the narratives of the mythical gods but not what they represent.
I think it’s a story that could be added to a man who they were trying to make out as the messiah, maybe someone with a questionable fathering.

You think that everyone confused a myth for history instead of embellishing someone’s history to make a person of lower class seem more messiahlike. You can’t explain the myth or how it got confused for history but you’re sure that because there a similar elements to other myths then what you are reading (an online article about) is obviously from a myth without understanding the context of the story. As I said, get back to me when you can understand this from the perspective of a messiah claimant.

Good prediction. Always go with the inevitable.

Elijah

Oh I’m sorry did I have to choose a card from the one historian who may have been in the position to mention the historical Jesus? I didn’t know the rules sorry, I was just trying to give the correct answer.

Yea I’m lazy sorry. If you have any evidence at all that supports the mythical origin of Jesus then you are going to have to present it. Very lazy.

No I’m probably smug about the possibility of you bringing any actual evidence forward to support your position. I’m not proud of my ignorance and try not to be smug with others but you are who you are.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure there is. That’s why it's Josephus Josephus Josephus every day of the week here.

Evidence for what? Yea, you have completely lost me. Josephus is of no use in my mind for arguing the mythical origin. You can argue against the authenticity of the disputed passage when someone tries to use Josephus to argue for a historical Jesus but it is of zero use to someone arguing for a mythical origin especially with TF. To see it used this way instead using one of, what should be many other historical records from the time and area, makes the whole argument from silence seem paper thin.

I am ignorant, lazy and smug… sorry. But thinking anyone on this board is unfamiliar with Josephus is kind of crazy.
Sorry like I said, I’ve had this conversation before. I thought maybe you being on here so long with so many posts would have something more persuasive to offer but you know I should probably have known better as well.

aa5874

Just as I expected, you cannot give any information or evidence to support your position.

I can repeat all the fictitious information found in the so-called biography of Jesus and you will never be able to name a single piece of information that is credible about Jesus.


Are you claiming that Jesus was truly born without sexual union, born of a virgin, the offspring of a Holy Ghost?

Are you claiming that you have to live in the 1st century to know that it was false that Jesus ascended through the clouds witnessed by his followers?

It would appear to me that you cannot recognise blatant fiction.

And I am not sitting in a pod with a wire in the back of my head.

But, based on your post, you don't even know anything?

What is your name? You don't know for certain.


You don't know anything for certain.


You don't know anything for certain.

You don't know anything for certain.

Good prediction. Always go with the inevitable.[/QUOTE]

You don't know anything for certain.

But I knew you could never provide any information or evidence to support your position.