Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 05-13-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Consequently, the mythicist camp needs to come up with some answers, i.e. no historical Jesus of Nazareth - then what the heck was Josephus up to? Rachel Elior has opened up an opportunity for mythicists to re-examine Josephus...

What was the intent of Philo with his celibate Essenes - his idealistic, philosophical, society of men living within a non-celibate Jewish culture? Would Josephus, writing later, have had any way of knowing what that intent was? Its possible...

Two possibilities occur to me: either Philo and later Josephus wanted to present a pseudo-Hellenistic school of pure and decent Jewish "philosophers" to their readers, or it was an attempt to burnish the image of real people like the Qumran dissenters :huh:

Rachel Elior, in the link that started this thread, is reported to have said:

Quote:

Elior says Josephus, inspired by descriptions of life in the Greek city of Sparta, made the Essenes up.

It looks as though its going to be open season for some time on this one.....

Which to my mind might be a good thing - the stalemate between the historical Jesus camp and the mythicist camp could do with some new strategies....not forgetting that its really the early beginnings of Christianity that we want to get a grip on!

andrewcriddle · 05-13-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Herbert Danby's translation also has "heretical books," but a footnote (#5) says the passage is, literally, "external books."

I would dispute your statement that it relates to resurrection when the order of those who have no share in the world to come are:

.................................................. .....................

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The saying attributed to Rabbi Akiva (Mishnah Sanhedrin chapter 10:1 refers to He who reads in heretical books (Neusner's translation) It is not clear exactly what books are meant, later Talmudic discussion gives various suggestions the books of the atheists and Ben Sira/Ecclesiasticus but these may be later guesses.

Andrew Criddle

Hi David

You may well be right. I said it was only a guess.

One reason that I thought the passage might mean books that deny the resurrection is the later suggestion (in the Gemara of the Babylonin Talmud Sanhedrin) that Ben Sira/Ecclesiasticus is included in the ban. Although the Gemara discusses minor halakhic problems with Ben Sira, one obvious issue (not mentioned) is Ben Sira's clear position that Sheol is the end.

Andrew Criddle

spin · 05-13-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

According to Herford, pg 161-162, the source is bab. Shabb. 116a (both terms), bab. Shabb. 152a & bab. A. Zar. 17b (Be Abidan), and bab. Erub. 79b-80a (Be Nitzraphi).

Thanks. I needed that. It was b.Shab. 116a that I was after.

There is an interesting distinction made between Be Abidan (Bet Ebion) and Be Nitzrapi (Bet Notzri[m]). (This is from circa 300: )

As for the Books of Be Abedan, may we save them from a fire or not? — Yes and No, and he was uncertain about the matter. Rab would not enter a Be Abedan, and certainly not a Be Nizrefe; Samuel would not enter a Be Nizrefe, yet he would enter a Be Abedan.

The decision about saving the books of the Minim: Yes and No. At least for Samuel, he would (conceivably) enter the Be Abidan. Not all Minim are the same.

spin

DCHindley · 05-13-2009, 06:21 PM

Hereford argued that Be Abidan = WDEION or "a place for philosophical disputations (among other things)." This would perhaps be the kind of place where you might find "Epicureans" (in the sense that rabbis used it - to denote freethinkers). Thus the term was contorted to resemble "Abaddon" (destruction).

He further thought that Be Nitzraphi referred to 'House of a Nazarene assembly" (bet + Notzri + a form of tzaraph). That this was a Christian assembly was suggested in b. Erub 79b-80a where it says that dates from a grove of date palms was used to make sacred wine used by the Be Nitzraphi.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

According to Herford, pg 161-162, the source is bab. Shabb. 116a (both terms), bab. Shabb. 152a & bab. A. Zar. 17b (Be Abidan), and bab. Erub. 79b-80a (Be Nitzraphi).

Thanks. I needed that. It was b.Shab. 116a that I was after.

There is an interesting distinction made between Be Abidan (Bet Ebion) and Be Nitzrapi (Bet Notzri[m]). (This is from circa 300: )

As for the Books of Be Abedan, may we save them from a fire or not? — Yes and No, and he was uncertain about the matter. Rab would not enter a Be Abedan, and certainly not a Be Nizrefe; Samuel would not enter a Be Nizrefe, yet he would enter a Be Abedan.

The decision about saving the books of the Minim: Yes and No. At least for Samuel, he would (conceivably) enter the Be Abidan. Not all Minim are the same.

spin

spin · 05-13-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Hereford argued that Be Abidan = WDEION or "a place for philosophical disputations (among other things)." This would perhaps be the kind of place where you might find "Epicureans" (in the sense that rabbis used it - to denote freethinkers). Thus the term was contorted to resemble "Abaddon" (destruction).

"Ebion" in Hebrew is )BYWN. (The waw is a long downward stroke.)
"Abidan" in Hebrew is )BYDN. (The dalet has the downward stroke plus a top leftward stroke.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

He further thought that Be Nitzraphi referred to 'House of a Nazarene assembly" (bet + Notzri + a form of tzaraph). That this was a Christian assembly was suggested in b. Erub 79b-80a where it says that dates from a grove of date palms was used to make sacred wine used by the Be Nitzraphi.

(There must be some other source for CRP: it's not in the Hebrew bible.)

The context of these organizations follow strictly the discussion on books of the Minim, saving books from the fire, and entering these two houses to do so. This relates both groups to the Minim.

spin

DCHindley · 05-14-2009, 02:40 PM

Hey, I wasn't saying he was right, only that he said these things.

And yes, I'd agree that both these groups are Minim. Gershom Scholem, in major trends In Jewish Mysticism, thought the term referred to a wide variety of folks. Christians were not the only Minim.

In fact, Scholem defined "gnostic" differently than most do today, hence the little "g," thinking of them more as "freethinkers" than followers of a Gnostic redeemer myth).

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Hereford argued that Be Abidan = WDEION or "a place for philosophical disputations (among other things)." This would perhaps be the kind of place where you might find "Epicureans" (in the sense that rabbis used it - to denote freethinkers). Thus the term was contorted to resemble "Abaddon" (destruction).

"Ebion" in Hebrew is )BYWN. (The waw is a long downward stroke.)
"Abidan" in Hebrew is )BYDN. (The dalet has the downward stroke plus a top leftward stroke.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

He further thought that Be Nitzraphi referred to 'House of a Nazarene assembly" (bet + Notzri + a form of tzaraph). That this was a Christian assembly was suggested in b. Erub 79b-80a where it says that dates from a grove of date palms was used to make sacred wine used by the Be Nitzraphi.

(There must be some other source for CRP: it's not in the Hebrew bible.)

The context of these organizations follow strictly the discussion on books of the Minim, saving books from the fire, and entering these two houses to do so. This relates both groups to the Minim.

spin

spin · 05-14-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Hey, I wasn't saying he was right, only that he said these things.

Sorry, I'm just rambling through this stuff. Talking off the top of my head (not shooting from the hip

).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

And yes, I'd agree that both these groups are Minim.

My problem is that I can't say that. The context is Minim and saving their books.

"R. Joseph b. Hanin asked R. Abbahu: As for the Books of Be Abedan, may we save them from a fire or not? — Yes and No, and he was uncertain about the matter."

Rab didn't make a distinction between the two houses Be Abidan and Be Nitzraphi, but Samuel does. He would enter the Be Abidan. So it isn't clear cut -- and that for me is very interesting. The text closely relates Be Abidan and Be Nitzraphi. Is Be Abidan of the Minim for Samuel?

spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Gershom Scholem, in major trends In Jewish Mysticism, thought the term referred to a wide variety of folks. Christians were not the only Minim.

In fact, Scholem defined "gnostic" differently than most do today, hence the little "g," thinking of them more as "freethinkers" than followers of a Gnostic redeemer myth).

maryhelena · 05-15-2009, 07:54 AM

An interesting comment on the blog of R. Joseph Hoffmann - article not related to the Essenes - but the point that is made regarding celibate life in first century Judaism is quite relevant.

Quote:

The Jesus Tomb Debacle: RIP
“......we cannot rely on them for information about the relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalene; that in the latter case we have a cover-up abetted by early theological interests and a desire (by whom?) to suppress the “secret” life of jesus, this despite the fact that it is public celibate life, and not a married life, that would have been scandalous in first century Judaism.”

http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2009/

maryhelena · 05-16-2009, 10:52 AM

For any Australians here....

Quote:

Rachel Elior to Speak in Melbourne on Dead Sea Scrolls

Readers in the Melbourne area may be interested in the follwing event being held at Monash Univerisyt:
"Who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?"

Professor Rachel Elior
Professor of Jewish Philosophy and Jewish Mystical Thought
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

Wednesday 20 May, 12-1.30pm
Monash CAULFIELD Campus, Building H, level 8 Sushi lunch provided

For more than 50 years, scholarship has maintained that the Qumran scrolls found in 11 caves next to the Dead Sea were authored by the Essenes. This seminar contests the prevailing scholarly consensus. The seminar will present the components of the library of the scrolls and argue that they are best contextualized according to the priestly interests of their authors and their biblical content, which reflects the biblical world in the three centuries before the destruction of the Second Temple. The seminar is based on Professor Elior's recent controversial book Memory and Oblivion: The Mystery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (in Hebrew) as reported in Time Magazine, Ha'aretz and The Jerusalem Report (see websites for reviews).

http://seanthebaptist.typepad.com/se...a-scrolls.html

Toto · 12-10-2009, 09:01 PM

Elior, through Jim West, has posted an excerpt in English from her book online, along with a reply to a review in Hebrew:

Jim West's blog post

Scribd - The DSS - who wrote them, when and why?

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12-10-2009, 09:01 PM	#200
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Elior, through Jim West, has posted an excerpt in English from her book online, along with a reply to a review in Hebrew: Jim West's blog post Scribd - The DSS - who wrote them, when and why?

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