Huon

1. First mention of the verb "suggest".
My first question : What early pagan reports ? Names, please, or where did you find that ? The death of Crispus happened around 326, Constantine died in 337.
2. Second mention of the verb "suggest".

Catholic Encyclopedia has a page about Suidas, another page about Lucian of Antioch, and another page about Samosata, mentioning Lucian of Samosata.
My second question :
Why do you mention Suidas (Xth century) and Lucian of Samosata (IInd century), who have nothing to do with Lucian of Antioch ?

[/QUOTE]

This quote does not originate in the Catho Encycl. It concerns Lucian of Samosata, and can be found here :

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lu...cian_intro.htm

My third question :
What has this quote to do with Constantine and the Arians ???

bacht

I like him too. Have you read his novel Creation? It deals with the generation after Darius I, and includes a surviving witness of Zoroaster.

mountainman

In your opinion is this a good thing
or a bad thing, using the verb "suggest"?


Here are my notes:

Epitome of the ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY OF PHILOSTORGIUS
compiled by Photius, circa 855 CE

CHAP. 4.

Philostorgius asserts that Constantine was induced by the fraudulent artifices of his step-mother to put his son Crispus to death; and afterwards, upon detecting her in the act of adultery with one of his Cursores, ordered the former to be suffocated in a hot bath. He adds, that long afterwards Constantine was poisoned by his brothers during his stay at Nicomedia, by way of atonement for the violent death of Crispus.

Comments

THE ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY OF PHILOSTORGIUS presented above is actually an epitome compiled by Photius, circa 855 CE. The original work no longer exists. Philostorgius was born about 368 at Borissus in Cappadocia Secunda but went at the age of twenty to Constantinople where he spent most of his life. Though a layman he became a follower and warm admirer of Eunomius.

While at Constantinople he published between 425 and 433 a Church History in twelve books covering the period 300-425 ostensibly a continuation of Eusebius but in reality a late apology for the extreme Arianism of Eunomius.

The History composed by this author was comprised in twelve books, and the initial letters of each book being put together composed the author’s name. Philostorgius commenced his History from the outbreak of the contest between Arius and Alexander, which he regarded as the first cause of the outbreak of the Arian heresy: and he continued it down to the date of the proclamation as emperor of Valentinian the younger, the son of Constantius and Placidia, and the violent death of John the Tyrant. The History itself was written as an encomium on the heretical party, and an attack and assault upon the orthodox, rather than a history.

Let's just say I was confused between the multiple historical Lucians.
We have alot of multiples in the Eusebian literary saga of "christian origins".

mountainman

Constantine was annoyed enough with Arius to write
a few letters concerning him which are today extant.
These letters indicate not only was Constantine annoyed
at Arius of Alexandria, but that:

(1) He wanted Arius dead.
(2) He wanted Arius' books to be burnt.
(3) He wanted anyone preserving the books of Arius to be beheaded.
(4) He wanted the name of Arius of Alexandria damned eternally.
(5) He wanted the memory of name of Arius of Alexandria damned eternally.

These are some of the reasons by which I am convinced that
the books which Arius of Alexandria wrote are in fact today extant
under our very eyes in the form of the new testament apocryphal
acts and gospels.

The epoch of Constantine was a strange political enviornment.
It was controlled by the military commander of the ROman army.
There was resistance to Constantine.
Today it is called Arianism.
A most terrible heresy.
Jesus was demoted.
In public.
By Arius.

Von Bek

No, I have not. Sounds interesting. It is Vidal's non-fiction that I have read. Numerous times I have grabbed one or another of his novels off a shelf in a bookstore. One day. I need an eighth day every week to help me read all the books I want to.

Huon

mountainman, your post #43.
When somebody reads a text, he/she can quote this text literally, or can quote what he/she has understood (what the text "suggested"). And two different readers can agree or disagree about what the original text "suggests". I think it is preferable to quote literally first, and then, give a personal remark, if desirable.

Secondly, Philostorgius.
I googled for Philostorge (french writing for Philostorgius), and found a mention of the Encyclopedy of Diderot, a french important writer of the Enlightment, as you certainly know.

This text, 11 pages long, is entitled : Celestial vision of Constantine. It is centered on the vision linked with the battle of Milvius Bridge, gives the description of this vision by Eusebius, Socrates, Sozomen, Philostorgius, Nicephore Calliste (french writing), Lactancius, Arthemius, and criticizes these descriptions, showing that they do not agree together.
His description of Constantine would delight you.

But I have read only half of this text, and I cannot go further, today.

BTW, this summary is what Diderot "suggests" to me ! lol !

mountainman

I greatly look forward to some extracts from Diderot suggestionism
in the sphere of his thinking about Constantine the Great (BA).

Huon

Here it is. But for those who do not remember exactly who were the wives, children, and close parents of Constantine, here is a summary (by me) :

In 307, Constantine married Maximian's daughter Fausta, and dropped his mistress Minervina, who was the mother of his first son, Crispus. In July 310, Maximian attempted to have Constantine murdered in his bed. The plot failed because Maximian tried to get his daughter Fausta's help in the matter; she chose to reveal the matter to her husband. Maximian died soon after that, a prisoner of Constantine. Maxentius was the son of Maximian. Maxentius died on 27 October 312 in an engagement he had with Constantine at the Milvian Bridge. In 313, Constantine and Licinius met at Milan. On this occasion Constantine's half-sister Constantia was wed to Licinius. In 324, Constantine defeated Licinius, and despite Constantia, Licinius was executed. In 326, Constantine ordered the execution of his oldest son Crispus, and some time later, of Fausta, the mother of his three other sons, Constantine II, Constantius II, and Constans.

Now, here is my translation of a text of the Encyclopedy of Diderot, written by the chevalier (knight) de JAUCOURT, a collaborator of the Encyclopedy.

mountainman

A sorry state of affairs for those who think that the new testament
was first published as good news by "good men".


------- N E R O N I A N ???? ---------

What sort of a black painting is this?
Has anyone seen the text of this epigram by Ablavius?


I think that the best key in understanding Constantine
is the term ... "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly".

Between the years of 305 and 315 he was "good".
Between the years of 316 and 325 he was "bad".
Between the years of 326 and 337 he was "ugly".

This brief summary assessment following the history
of Aurelius Victor in which he writes:

What this all suggests to me is the the new testament might
be appropriately described as Bullneck's literary bullshit;
the fabrication of the christians as a fiction composed by
wicked men. But just how wicked was Constantine?

Huon

The CCEL quotes Flavius Ablavius :
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wace/biodic...nstantinus%20I

This page mentions Sidonius Apollinaris, his letters (Epistulae), Book V, epistle 8. We are not far from the goal.

Looking for Sidoine Apollinaire and his epistles :

http://agoraclass.fltr.ucl.ac.be/con.../lecture/8.htm

http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/histori...oine/index.htm

Here is the distich !

"Saturni aurea saecla quis requirat?
Sunt haec gemmea, sed Neroniana".

"Qui regretterait le siècle d’or de Saturne?
Le nôtre est de diamant, mais Néronien".

"Who would regret the golden centuries of Saturn ?
Ours [our centuries] are of gems, but Neronian".