Sheshbazzar

Man but this wrangling gets old and tiresome. So what, even if spin did slip up (and I'm not about to state that is the case)
So what? mistaken on one word? Big freaking deal! As most of the stories that are related in the bulk of the text are no more than a bunch of glorified fairy-tales, correcting that one disputed -word- will not change nor impact the fact that all of the book's "important" claims, are just a big bunch of fabricated hooey.

spin

I'm glad to see you've abandoned your crap about Hebrew QBL.

You've seen that the word has been translated both as "take" and "receive". You've not dealt with that fact. You've not dealt with the relevance of the word, ie what its implications are in the context. So, if you want to force the translation "received" in Dan 5:31, please explain who gave the kingdom to "Darius the Mede" (who we learn is king) and based on what evidence?

Tell me this: how does one know what a word means when it is only used in the text you are examining and you avoid how the related word is used in Hebrew??

As I pointed out there are too few examples (all in Daniel) to give a hard and fast definition. If you want me to admit I'm wrong, I'll do so: I admit that I'm wrong in having wasted too much time with someone who seems unaware of the issues.


spin

aChristian

I haven't abandoned anything in the Hebrew. It is permissible in Hebrew to translate it as receive as well. When you say that there are too few examples for a hard and fast definition, you are shooting yourself in the foot because you are the one who made the strong point that it could not be translated as receive, but could only be translated (hard and fast) as take. I simply pointed to the lexicon and demonstrated that it could be translated receive. Someone later gave numerous translations that did so. Your claim that receive is not a permissible translation is just wrong.

spin

No answer.

And no answer here.

So, tell me, what is the semantic content that both take and receive hold?

You are not making sense. I recommended you look at the Hebrew equivalent to help you and you dropped it like a hot potato. :wave:

As well as "take". You ignore the semantic overlap. I've explained what my interest was.

You are hilarious in your effort to make sense. All you have to do is think. Instead we get:



As you won't respond to anything, you can say your peace one more time.

arnoldo

No one believes the Book of Daniel was written between the years of 167 and 164 BCE (a three year span).

spin

Here is an annotated guide to Dan 11, in which we find a series of conflicts between the kings of the north and the kings of the south immediately after the time of Alexander, the warrior king of 11:3 and the diadochi in 11:4. The king of the north is clearly Seleucid (Syria) and the king of the south is Ptolemy (Egypt) and chapter 11 describes the Syrian_Wars. A close examination of the text in conjunction with this history provides an identical match, showing

• 2 And now will I declare unto thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all; and when he is waxed strong through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece.
  Persia is stirred up against Greece, 11:2,

The Kingdom of the Greeks

• 3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
  the rise of Alexander, 11:3,
• 4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; but not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion wherewith he ruled; for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
  the death of Alexander and the division of his empire into four, the diadochi, 11:4,
• 5 And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.
  the ascendancy of the southern Ptolemy kings in the third century, 11:5
• 6 And at the end of years they shall join themselves together; and the daughter of the king of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement; but she shall not retain the strength of her arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm; but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begot her, and he that obtained her in those times.
  the problem of northern Antiochus II's wife, Berenice, 253-246 BCE, 11:6,
• 7 But one of the shoots of her roots shall stand up in his place, and shall come unto the army, and shall enter into the stronghold of the king of the north, and shall deal with them, and shall prevail; 8 and also their gods, with their molten images, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold, shall he bring into captivity into Egypt; and he shall desist some years from the king of the north.
  her brother, Ptolemy III, marches into Syria, briefly occupying Antioch before returning to Egypt with much booty, 246-241 BCE, 11:7-8,
• 9 And he shall come into the kingdom of the king of the south, but he shall return into his own land.
  Seleucus II attempts to recoup from Syria's losses, by civil unrest forces him to return, 11:9

Antiochus III

• 10 And his sons shall stir themselves up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces, and he shall come on, and overflow, as he passes through; and he shall return and stir himself up, even to his stronghold.
  the Syrians (Antiochus III) advance far into Egyptian holdings to Gaza, 11:10,
• 11 And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, even with the king of the north; and he shall set forth a great multitude, but the multitude shall be given into his hand. 12 and the multitude shall be carried away, and his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down tens of thousands; but he shall not prevail.
  but Ptolemy IV stops the southern movement temporarily, winning the battle of Raphia in 217 BCE, 11:11-12,
• 13 And the king of the north shall again set forth a multitude, greater than the former; and he shall come on at the end of the times, even of years, with a great army and with much substance. 14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south; also the children of the violent among thy people shall lift themselves up to establish the vision; but they shall stumble. 15 And the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mound, and take a well-fortified city; and the arms of the south shall not withstand; and as for his chosen people, there shall be no strength in them to withstand. 16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him; and he shall stand in the beauteous land, and in his hand shall be extermination.
  the ascendency of Antiochus III with his successful campaigns against the south, 11:13-16,
• 17 And he shall set his face to come with the strength of his whole kingdom, but shall make an agreement with him; and he shall give him the daughter of women, to destroy it; but it shall not stand, neither be for him.
  Antiochus III consolidates his positions in Palestine and marries his daughter to Ptolemy IV in 195 BCE, 11:17,
• 18 After this shall he set his face unto the isles, and shall take many; but a captain shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; yea, he shall cause his own reproach to return upon him.
  Antiochus III moves into the Aegean, but is defeated by the Roman commander Scipio Asiaticus at Magnesia in 190 BCE, 11:18,
• 19 Then he shall turn his face toward the strongholds of his own land; but he shall stumble and fall, and shall not be found.
  the death of Antiochus III in 187 BCE, 11:19
• 20 Then shall stand up in his place one that shall cause an exactor to pass through the glory of the kingdom; but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
  the reign of Seleucus IV (187-175 BCE) with the famous visit of his official Heliodorus to Jerusalem (2 Macc 3), 11:20,

Antiochus IV

• 21 And in his place shall stand up a contemptible person, upon whom had not been conferred the majesty of the kingdom; but he shall come in time of security, and shall obtain the kingdom by blandishments.
  the rise to the throne by Antiochus IV in 175 BCE; he was a younger son of Antiochus III, so he was not the rightful heir to the throne (Demetrius who was still a hostage in Rome) 11:21,
• 22 And the arms of the flood shall be swept away from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
  the removal of Onias_III, the prince of the covenant, in the same year, 11:22,
• 23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully; and he shall come up and become strong, with a little nation.
  Antiochus IV's agreement with Jason and his supporters, 11:23,
• 24 In time of security shall he come even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers: he shall scatter among them prey, and spoil, and substance; yea, he shall devise his devices against fortresses, but only until the time.
  despite the fact that politically events had stabilized with the overlordship of the Seleucids, Antiochus IV taxed the Jews very hard (unlike his father Antiochus III who had exempted them) in order to pay reparations from his father's loss at Magnesia, 11:24,
• 25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall stir himself up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand, for they shall devise devices against him. 26 Yea, they that eat of his food shall destroy him, and his army shall be swept away; and many shall fall down slain. 27 And as for both these kings, their hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper, for the end remaineth yet for the time appointed.
  reaction to Antiochus IV's first campaign against the south, including his defeat (and capture) of Ptolemy VI on which the Egyptians appointed Ptolemy VII to rule, then mention of the two Ptolemy kings (Ptolemy VI and Ptolemy VII) who agreed to rule jointly after the withdrawal of Antiochus IV, 11:25-7,
• 28 And he shall return to his own land with great substance; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do his pleasure, and return to his own land.
  the first Egyptian campaign was very lucrative, but as he returned home he had to repress a rebellion in Jerusalem led by Jason (see 2 Macc 5:1ff), 11:28,
• 29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come into the south; but it shall not be in the latter time as it was in the former.
  Antiochus IV's second campaign against the south, 11:29, culminating in
• 30 For ships of Kittim shall come against him, and he shall be cowed, and he shall return, and have indignation against the holy covenant, and shall do his pleasure; and he shall return, and have regard unto them that forsake the holy covenant.
  the arrival of the Romans (the ships of the Kittim), led by Gaius_Popillius_Laenas, to force him to leave, (see also the Old Greek LXX which specifically mentions the Romans), angrily leaving Egypt, Antiochus attacks, Jerusalem, 11:30,
• 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the stronghold, and shall take away the continual burnt-offering, and they shall set up the detestable thing that causes desolation.
  his occupation of the temple and the fortress (Acra) with the stopping of sacrifice and the pollution of the temple, 11:31, and
• 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall be corrupt by blandishments; but the people that know their God shall show strength, and prevail.
  The wicked are the Seleucid party of Jews, led by Menelaus, who supported Antioch, 11:32,
• 33 And they that are wise among the people shall cause the many to understand; yet they shall stumble by the sword and by flame, by captivity and by spoil, many days.
  a number of Jews will continue to profess their faith during the persecution; they will be tortured and martyred, (See 2 Macc 6 & 7), 11:33,
• 34 Now when they shall stumble, they shall be helped with a little help; but many shall join themselves unto them with blandishments. 35 And some of them that are wise shall stumble, to refine among them, and to purify, and to make white, even to the time of the end; for it is yet for the time appointed.
  and the complete suppression of the Jewish religion, 11:34-35,
• 36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak strange things against the God of gods; and he shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished; for that which is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers; and neither the desire of women, nor any god, shall he regard; for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his place shall he honor the god of strongholds; and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and costly things. 39 And he shall deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god; whom he shall acknowledge, shall increase glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for a price.
  and so on, including the mention of his receiving help from a foreign god (Olympian Zeus, see 2 Macc 6:2).

The fulcrum is the stopping of temple sacrifices, seen above in 11:31, and in the other visions at 9:27 and 8:11 -- this last is done by the little horn, who we also see is the culmination of the fourth beast in chapter 7, who attacked the Jews and attempted to change the seasons and the laws. Dan 11 should show that the stoppage of daily sacrifice was done by Antiochus IV, so he should be responsible in the other visions as well.


spin

arnoldo

Even Josephus called Daniel a prophet.

Sheshonq

Nobody believes it? And you know that......how, exactly?

From your studies in the area? Oh, that's right - you haven't done any.
From your review of the literature? But you haven't done that, either.
From interviewing leading people in the field of biblical research? Nope, none of that.
Did you even so much as conduct a survey? Of course not.

So what we're left with is your hopeful assumption being presented as if it were fact - which it clearly isn't.

Now let's turn to an actual authority to show you that your claim "no one believes...." is bullshit as usual. From The Oxford Companion to the Bible, edited by Bruce M. Metzger and Michael D. Coogan:

NOW:
What was that you were saying about nobody believing this book was written in a three-year span?

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Sheshonq

Which proves....what, exactly?

arnoldo

Wrong, note Daniel Chpt 7.
1. Lion = babylon
2. Bear = Medo/Persia
3. Leopard (4 wings/4 heads)= Greece
4. Fourth Beat = Rome, the little horn is prophetic
Daniel 8:9 = Antiochus ( little horn fulfilled)