Amaleq13

Spin and Offa (sounds like a foreign cartoon),



Before you kids get wrapped up in your argument, I'm having trouble locating the story Offa referenced:

ANT 13.311 But here one may take occasion to wonder at one Judas,
who was of the sect of the Essenes, and who never missed the truth in
his predictions; for this man, when he saw Antigonas passing by the
temple, cried to his companions and friends, who abode with him as his
scholars, in order to learn the art of foretelling things to come.
ANT 13.312 "That it was good for him to die now, since he had
spoken falsely about Antigonas, who is still alive, and I see him
passing by, although he had foretold that he should die at the place
called Strato's Tower that very day, while yet the place is six
hundred furlongs off where he had foretold he should be slain; and
still this day is a great part of it already past, so that he was in
danger of proving a false prophet."
ANT 13.313 As he was saying this, and that in a melancholy mood,
the news came that Antigonas was slain in a place under ground, which
itself was called also Strato's Tower or of the same name with that
Cesarea which is seated at the sea. This event put the prophet into a
great disorder.

According to the Whiston translation on Kirby's website, the death of Antigonas is given in the 15th chapter. In addition, there are only three appearances of "Strato's Tower" and none include the above text.

I was interested in reading the broader context of the passages but now I am confused.

spin

Try 13.11.2


2. Aristobulus yielded to these imputations, but took care both that his brother should not suspect him, and that he himself might not run the hazard of his own safety; so he ordered his guards to lie in a certain place that was under ground, and dark; (he himself then lying sick in the tower which was called Antonia and he commanded them, that in case Antigonus came in to him unarmed, they should not touch any body, but if armed, they should kill him; yet did he send to Antigonus, and desired that he would come unarmed; but the queen, and those that joined with her in the plot against Antigonus, persuaded the messenger to tell him the direct contrary: how his brother had heard that he had made himself a fine suit of armor for war, and desired him to come to him in that armor, that he might see how fine it was. So Antigonus suspecting no treachery, but depending on the good-will of his brother, came to Aristobulus armed, as he used to be, with his entire armor, in order to show it to him; but when he was come to a place which was called Strato's Tower, where the passage happened to be exceeding dark, the guards slew him; which death of his demonstrates that nothing is stronger than envy and calumny, and that nothing does more certainly divide the good-will and natural affections of men than those passions. But here one may take occasion to wonder at one Judas, who was of the sect of the Essens, (31) and who never missed the truth in his predictions; for this man, when he saw Antigonus passing by the temple, cried out to his companions and friends, who abode with him as his scholars, in order to learn the art of foretelling things to come?" That it was good for him to die now, since he had spoken falsely about Antigonus, who is still alive, and I see him passing by, although he had foretold he should die at the place called Strato's Tower that very day, while yet the place is six hundred furlongs off, where he had foretold he should be slain; and still this day is a great part of it already past, so that he was in danger of proving a false prophet." As he was saying this, and that in a melancholy mood, the news came that Antigonus was slain in a place under ground, which itself was called also Strato's Tower, or of the same name with that Cesarea which is seated at the sea. This event put the prophet into a great disorder.


spin


I particularly like the smiley where there should be a ; and a ).

Amaleq13

Thanks for the assist, Spin. I didn't find the passage because I chose "Essenes" as my search word.

Did Josephus consistently refer to the "Essenes" as "Essens"?

offa

Amaleq13 (snip)
Before you kids get wrapped up in your argument, I'm having trouble locating the story Offa referenced

Yes, I am a brat, and I offer my sincere apologies. Please accept my olive branch Spin.

hahahah, remember "Spin & Marty"?

Amlodhi

How is this obvious? By your own statements you agree that two or more places can, and have, been referred to by the same appellation. How, then, does the fact that Josephus records that Hyrcanus built a fortified estate and called it "tyre" necessarily equate that tyre with the Syro-Phoenician city of Tyre?

Against this contention are the facts in book 8 of the antiquities:

1) Josephus specifically places this Tyre in the time of Solomon; c. 800 yrs. before Hyrcanus' tyre was even built.

2) Josephus specifically names Hiram as king of thisTyre.

3) He also speaks of Hiram's subjects laboring in the felling of cedars of Lebanon and floating them down the sea coast.

4) Josephus states that these letters (between Solomon and Hiram) are preserved "not only in our (the Jews) books, but among the Tyrians also."

In addition, the "T" in the English translation of Tyre is not actually a "T" but is the Hebrew character "Tsade" pronounced "TS". In the Hebrew, Tyre is "Tsor" ("o" as in cost). I Kg. 7:14, for instance, refers to a man "of Tyre", or in the Hebrew, "Tsoriy", i.e. a Syrian.

The sense in which Hyrcanus used the appellation "tyre", however, may have stemmed from the underlying sense of the word itself, rather than simple adoption of the name of a Syro-Phoenician city. The root meaning of the term "tsor" comes from "tsur" which carries the connotation of a "rock or cliff" (in the sense of "stronghold") or "refuge".

cf. excerpts from Josephus book 12 ch.4:11 Ant.; "He also erected a strong castle . . .", "He also made caves . . by hollowing a rock that was over against it . . .", ". . . he made the entrances at the mouth of the caves narrow that no more than one person could enter by them at once . . for his own preservation . . lest he should be besieged by his brethren."

Thus, it seems there is ample evidence that Josephus was referring to two distinct places, both of which were, in some sense, referred to as "Tyre" or "tyre".

The "Tyre" referred to in Ant. book 8 is clearly the Syro-Phoenician city on the Mediterranean coast. The "Tyre" or tyre referred to in book 12 is the stronghold built by Hyrcanus some 800 yrs after the events indicated in the book 8 citations.

It seems apparent from this that king Hiram was a Syrian; not a Jew.

Namaste'

Amlodhi

offa

Amlodhi
User

Registered: July 2003
Location: central USA
Posts: 127


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by offa

Ant 08-050 ...Obviously Josephus is here talking about the Tyre that
Hyrcanus built. So, Hiram, king of Tyre is a Jew and not a Phoenician.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




How is this obvious? By your own statements you agree that two or more
places can, and have, been referred to by the same appellation. How,
then, does the fact that Josephus records that Hyrcanus built a
fortified estate and called it "tyre" necessarily equate that tyre
with the Syro-Phoenician city of Tyre?

o.k. Let's start off with "there is more than one Tyre"




Against this contention are the facts in book 8 of the antiquities:


1) Josephus specifically places this Tyre in the time of Solomon; c.
800 yrs. before Hyrcanus' tyre was even built.


I have concluded that there is more than one Tyre. In this analogy I
reason that there is more than one time frame. In other words, either
the Tyre he is talking about did not exist when Hiram was king, or,
that this Hiram is pseudo. My meaning is this, king Solomon and Hiram
are from the Maccabaean time frame.

here is an example'

In his State of the Union speech Jan. 28, Bush said, "The British
government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant
quantities of uranium from Africa." Bush advisers have since said that
the line should have been omitted but that they believe it was
accurate


Somebody is spinning! How can you call G.W. a liar when you know he
is? What he said was true but he already knew that it was a lie.


2) Josephus specifically names Hiram as king of this Tyre.


Yep, and I am Offa, king of the dykes.


3) He also speaks of Hiram's subjects laboring in the felling of
cedars of Lebanon and floating them down the sea coast.


Yep, where is Lebanon?


4) Josephus states that these letters (between Solomon and Hiram) are
preserved "not only in our (the Jews) books, but among the Tyrians also."


Yep, what are tyrians?


In addition, the "T" in the English translation of Tyre is not
actually a "T" but is the Hebrew character "Tsade" pronounced "TS". In
the Hebrew, Tyre is "Tsor" ("o" as in cost). I Kg. 7:14, for instance,
refers to a man "of Tyre", or in the Hebrew, "Tsoriy", i.e. a Syrian.


Let's get off this greek shit. I do not read Greek. I have no desire
to read greek or latin or hebrew. I read KJV and Whiston's Josephus.
Read what my peers read.

The sense in which Hyrcanus used the appellation "tyre", however, may
have stemmed from the underlying sense of the word itself, rather than
simple adoption of the name of a Syro-Phoenician city. The root
meaning of the term "tsor" comes from "tsur" which carries the
connotation of a "rock or cliff" (in the sense of "stronghold") or
"refuge".


o.k.


cf. excerpts from Josephus book 12 ch.4:11 Ant.; "He also erected a
strong castle . . .", "He also made caves . . by hollowing a rock that
was over against it . . .", ". . . he made the entrances at the mouth
of the caves narrow that no more than one person could enter by them
at once . . for his own preservation . . lest he should be besieged by
his brethren."

Thus, it seems there is ample evidence that Josephus was referring to
two distinct places, both of which were, in some sense, referred to
as "Tyre" or "tyre".

The "Tyre" referred to in Ant. book 8 is clearly the Syro-Phoenician
city on the Mediterranean coast. The "Tyre" or tyre referred to in
book 12 is the stronghold built by Hyrcanus some 800 yrs after the
events indicated in the book 8 citations.

It seems apparent from this that king Hiram was a Syrian; not a Jew.


Check out how long I am listed as a member. I belonged to the
original infidel board. I lost my original I.D. on this board
(onemuddyone) because of a password crisis. Back in 2000 I knew
that the Tyrians were Jews about ten miles west of the Dead Sea.
I know that today and I will now that tomorrow. You are either
living a lie or have some kind of benefit from your belief.

spin

Is the above Section 8 or what?


spin

Amlodhi

Then apparently you are prepared to demonstrate that the biblical book of Kings was written during the Hasmonean dynasty or you are otherwise prepared to demonstrate which persons (and why) Josephus was cryptically referring to as "Solomon" and "Hiram".

There was no Greek in my post; fecal or otherwise.

How is the amount of time you have spent posting on an internet bulletin board relevant?. . (chuckle). . Do you think I have spent the last 51 yrs with my head buried in a bucket of sand?

This is neither a matter of belief nor personal creed, but rather, of textual examination.

Did I miss the part in your post where you provided support for your assertions, or is that still forthcoming?

Namaste'

Amlodhi

Amaleq13

I think it is safe to say we are no longer in Kansas.



Kansas, of course, being a secret underground bunker in rural Idaho and not the state.




I regret and apologize for not PM'ing my question.

spin

Ahh, there's the rub. You take the time to try to explain a little bit of Hebrew to him and the guy's offa his face. If he knew his stuff he mighta said, but CR isn't the same place as CWR (C = tsade).


spin