Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-23-2013, 03:01 PM

but that's an illogical argument. every time i reference my dog you can't expect me also to mention i have children too

mountainman · 01-23-2013, 04:25 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

Celsus read Christian texts. He was familiar with divisions and features of Christian worship.

It is impossible to be certain that Celsus is fairly represented by the texts Origen quotes to refute him.

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Perhaps [Philo] deliberately avoided the 'J' word because of persecutions in Alexandria.

Perhaps pigs can fly.

aa5874 · 01-23-2013, 04:28 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

but that's an illogical argument. every time i reference my dog you can't expect me also to mention i have children too

What total logical fallacy!!! If you mention your dog you have children too?? What absurdity!!!

mountainman · 01-23-2013, 04:36 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Philo DIRECTLY LINKED the Essenes to JUDEA and DIRECTLY LINKED the Therapeutae to EGYPT.

Philo's Hypothetica

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But our lawgiver trained an innumerable body of his pupils to partake in those things, who are called Essenes, being, as I imagine, honoured with this appellation because of their exceeding holiness. And they dwell in many cities of Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous..

Philo's On the Contemplative Life

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Philo's Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt...

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but that's an illogical argument

No it isn't. It's just that the statements in the source material conflict with the belief system (i.e. dogma) to which the "Biblical Scholar hegemon" and yourself have uncritically subscribed.

mountainman · 01-23-2013, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

This is not 'my POV' but everyone's in the real world of academia. Only in this parallel crazy world reality is there any question about what Philo is saying.

I have already pointed out to you that there is sufficient reason to question the accepted claim that "VC" was authored by the same Philo who wrote the rest of Philo's works. This is a discussion forum not a pulpit for self-professed-know-it-all-unquestioning academics.

It should be clear by now that the dogma POV/Claim that there were Jewish therapeutae in antiquity, a claim that is expressly reliant upon the integrity of the CHURCH PRESERVED Philonic "VC", is able to be questioned and challenged.

aa5874 · 01-23-2013, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

There isn't one person among les moches here who can offer a coherent counter-argument. It's just 'he doesn't say they are specifically Jewish.' But as I have illustrated, Philo went through literary phases where he did not mention the word Jewish. There is clearly a pagan audience reading his material. Perhaps he deliberately avoided the 'J' word because of persecutions in Alexandria. The context however is clearly Jewish.

Again, your statement is NOT logical. Philo did NOT avoid the 'J' word when he mentioned the Essenes in "Hypothetica" and "All Good Men are Free".

The context is clearly Non-Jewish in "On the Contemplative Life" where The Therapeutae are IDENTIFIED in Egypt--never in Judea and NEVER of Jewish origin.

Philo's On the Contemplative Life

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... They have also writings of ancient men, who having been the founders of one sect or another have left behind them many memorials of the allegorical system of writing and explanation, whom they take as a kind of model, and imitate the general fashion of their sect...

The MODEL for the writings and explanation of the Therapeutae were NOT identified as Jewish but from some ancient founders of the sect.

stephan huller · 01-23-2013, 06:56 PM

but times change. i demonstrated in a previous post that there is a big split between the early and late writings in terms of using "Jew" and "Jewish." nevertheless all his writings are typically Jewish. and if you are suggesting otherwise, tell me what he is if not Jewish?

aa5874 · 01-23-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

but times change. i demonstrated in a previous post that there is a big split between the early and late writings in terms of using "Jew" and "Jewish." nevertheless all his writings are typically Jewish. and if you are suggesting otherwise, tell me what he is if not Jewish?

You demonstrated no such thing. You only managed to confirm that you were completely unfamiliar with the writings of Philo.

You were completely unaware that the ESSENES were NOT the same as the Therapeutae who were not described as Jews or of Jewish origin.

You seem not to understand that hundreds of years ago the very writers of the Church claimed or implied that the Therapeutae were CHRISTIANS--NOT Jews.

In "Church History" it is implied that "On the Contemplative Life" is about the Christians in Egypt.

It is claimed that Philo wrote about the Christians in Alexandria when Mark was there.

Church History 2.16

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1. And they say that this Mark was the first that was sent to Egypt, and that he proclaimed the Gospel which he had written, and first established churches in Alexandria.

2. And the multitude of believers, both men and women, that were collected there at the very outset, and lived lives of the most philosophical and excessive asceticism, was so great, that Philo thought it worth while to describe their pursuits, their meetings, their entertainments, and their whole manner of life.

Church History 2.17.3-4

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3. In the work to which he gave the title, On a Contemplative Life or on Suppliants, after affirming in the first place that he will add to those things which he is about to relate nothing contrary to truth or of his own invention, he says that these men were called Therapeutæ and the women that were with them Therapeutrides. He then adds the reasons for such a name, explaining it from the fact that they applied remedies and healed the souls of those who came to them, by relieving them like physicians, of evil passions, or from the fact that they served and worshipped the Deity in purity and sincerity.

4. Whether Philo himself gave them this name, employing an epithet well suited to their mode of life, or whether the first of them really called themselves so in the beginning, since the name of Christians was not yet everywhere known, we need not discuss here...

It is clear that the Therapeutae were NOT considered Jews in antiquity but Christians in Egypt.

Chili · 01-23-2013, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

.

The context is clearly Non-Jewish in "On the Contemplative Life" where The Therapeutae are IDENTIFIED in Egypt--never in Judea and NEVER of Jewish origin.

Philo's On the Contemplative Life

Quote:

... They have also writings of ancient men, who having been the founders of one sect or another have left behind them many memorials of the allegorical system of writing and explanation, whom they take as a kind of model, and imitate the general fashion of their sect...

The MODEL for the writings and explanation of the Therapeutae were NOT identified as Jewish but from some ancient founders of the sect.

But contemplating is not done from paper. It does not sound like you know what contemplatives are. Maybe you think that contemplating just requires one to squash his eyes shut so he can think better, but that is not contemplating, is it?

Indoctrinated values are contempated or the rich man would not be sitting in front of a table loaded with passages. See the contradiction?

And you just can't be an imitator as faith-healer, can you? or do you think maybe they were? I called them holly rollers once, who act like that too. Try it and see for yourself: just tell them you are sick, and they will see devils all over you, inside and out.

To be sure, mysteries of faith are to be contemplated, but that is not the same as arcane esoteric passages.

And do you realize that 500 years into the modern world there still are no contempatives among protestant religions. None, nothing but libraries and universities handing our PhD's for good behavior and that is about it.

And Christians are never contemplatives with a salvation recipe to defend. Mysteries are contemplated, and that is why I say that they were holy rollers if not Jews.

stephan huller · 01-23-2013, 08:31 PM

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In "Church History" it is implied that "On the Contemplative Life" is about the Christians in Egypt.

So we are now arguing that Eusebius gets the last word. Okay. So what does Eusebius say about Philo's background?

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Lest, however, you should suppose that these are my subtleties, I will offer you as interpreter of the meaning of the Scripture a man of Hebrew race, who received from his forefathers an accurate knowledge of the history of his country, and had learned the doctrine from his teachers; that is, if you accept Philo as such a man. Listen then to him, how he interprets the divine utterances. [Preparation for the Gospel 7.12]

and again:

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This again is interpreted by Philo the Hebrew, adding yet the following to his sayings which have been quoted. [ibid 7.17]

and again:

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So far this author. But the Hebrew Philo also in his book Concerning Providence gives the following account of matter: [ibid 7.20]

Game over. Thanks aa. Have a nice day.

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01-23-2013, 03:01 PM	#351
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	but that's an illogical argument. every time i reference my dog you can't expect me also to mention i have children too

01-23-2013, 06:56 PM	#357
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	but times change. i demonstrated in a previous post that there is a big split between the early and late writings in terms of using "Jew" and "Jewish." nevertheless all his writings are typically Jewish. and if you are suggesting otherwise, tell me what he is if not Jewish?

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