Ben C Smith

I agree. It is a little hard to imagine that.

But the fact that spin asked the question indicates to me that he may have some doubts about this. I am wondering what evidence there is in either direction.

Ben.

spin

It's merely a problem for the_cave.


spin

Jeffrey Gibson

I believe that it's generally accepted among Classicists that the source of large chunks of Tacitus' slanderous account of the Jews (see Hist. 5) was Manetho.

If so -- and I am attempting to get conformation of this from Classicist friends of mine -- then, yes, beyond the general consideration (supported by Quintillian and others) that in the Empire, any upper class Roman man would have learned Greek from his grammaticus as a matter of course, there is hard evidence that Tacitus did read Greek.

Jeffrey

Ben C Smith

Thanks very much for this.

I know several (including Mason, IIRC) think that Tacitus used the Jewish War by Josephus, too.

Ben.

Toto

It is generally poor form to psychoanalyze your debate opponents and claim that they cannot accept your argument for non-rational reasons. Does the potential non-existence of Jesus take you out of your comfort zone?

If you claim that it is a "proven fact" that Jesus existed, you are not familiar with the quality of evidence and the well established claims of forgery in early Christian documents. If you were, you might still think that Jesus existed, but you would not be able to claim that as a proven fact.

Jeffrey Gibson

You might want to tell this to Earl.

Jeffrey

Toto

Earl Doherty claims that the resistance to his ideas is based on "confessional" interests, not just going beyond a "comfort zone" (a sure sign that modern pop psychology has entered the room.)

It is, of course, often true that resistance to ideas has a non-rational basis. But it is still bad form to argue that on these boards, especially before you completely understand your opponent's arguments, as MechAnimal seems to have done.

Sheshbazzar

If one removes the Hellenization of the names of the subjects, the "Jesus" of NT fame is even further removed from the picture.
vis.
Not objecting that Josephus wrote his works in Greek, and did employ the popular Hellenized names within his compositions for his Greek patrons and audience. But as this "James" was an actual Jewish leader in Jerusalem Israel, and a prominent Hebrew among the Hebrews, it is most likely, given the Jewish national and ethnic pride, that the actual name given to him at birth was the ancient and highly honored ancestral name "Jacob", and the same true with regards to the name "Jesus".

My own given birth name has always placed me in a somewhat similar circumstances with regards to altered or ethnic names.
As my mother, at my birth bestowed upon me a somewhat "peculiar" and unusual name for an American boy, a name that is an alliteration of her given name, having so done, she died early in my second year of life, and I have very little actual memory of her.
During my childhood my unusual "sissy" name was often made the object of teasing, taunting and ridiculing chants by the more crass of my classmates.

Latter on my contacts with children of a different ethnic/language background made me aware that to them, in their language my name was "Je'sus"!
I could, and early on did, accommodate this dubious "honor" of being called the name "Je'sus" by them.
Yet where was the honor, or the remembrance for my dear departed mothers name? that peculiar one she had actually bestowed upon me?
As an adult I have often attempted to explain the difference to these men of other ethnic background, but can't say that I have ever been successful in any such attempts, as to them, and to their linguistic norms and paradigm there is only the name "Je'sus" for my name in their language.
The few times I have endeavored press the point with them, as to what my actual given name is, and from whence it actually derives, and why for the sake of the honor of my mothers memory I'd prefer it unaltered, even such men as who were my close and long time friends tended become frustrated, agitated, and angry, insisting that the name my mother actually gave me does not, and cannot exist in their language, and even when spelled exactly as it is in English, in their language it is "Je'sus" :huh:

"A rose by any other name will still smell the same..." Is the popular claim;
However, a Name that is "above all other names", One that is a Shibboleth, a Password and Watchword,
by any other "name".......In my humble opinion, just plain stinks.

the_cave

I don't understand--why is it a problem for me?

It looks like there is in fact some curiosity among the posters here as to whether Tacitus read Greek. Of course, even if he did, that doesn't mean he read Josephus.

Ben C Smith

Tacitus just about had to have read either Josephus or some source that used Josephus, at least at some point. As Carlson points out, in the Histories Tacitus repeats the Josephan claim that the Jewish scriptures pointed, not to a native Jewish messiah, but rather to Vespasian (Tacitus adds Titus as well), an interpretation for which Josephus appears to claim credit. Compare Tacitus, Histories 5.13.2, with Josephus, Wars of the Jews 6.5.4 §312-313 (also compare 3.8.3 §350-354 and 3.8.9 §399-404).

Ben.