S.C.Carlson

This info on Justin comes from his own writings, not merely from some statement in Eusebius's history. Unless, of course, Eusebius forged Justin's writing, but I thought we are talking about "historical reality."

Stephen

vid

PhilosopherJay: how did such taxation system prevent corruption? Like collecting tax from 10000 people, but giving out tax for and claiming population of 8000 people... ?

PhilosopherJay

Hi Vid,

Actually, I am not sure that it prevented corruption. It is probable that many tax collectors did collect more than they turned over. So if X was assigned to an area with a 1,000 people and the tax was one drachma, the administrator would pay X a fixed percentage of the total amount, let's say 20%. Thus X was supposed to turn over 800 drachmas and keep the remaining 200 drachmas. If X could not collect the tax from all 1,000, but only collected from 700 of them, he would be forced to pay the other 100 out of his own pocket. This is possibly why tax collectors were considered so brutal and accused of torturing poor people who could not afford to pay taxes. They had to make their quota to live. On the other hand, if indeed there were 1200 people actually living in their district and only 1000 drachmas was required, nothing could keep them from pocketing the extra loot.

The upside for the administrators to this system is that they didn't need to do much record keeping. They just needed to have a reasonably good idea of the number of people in each district, but I imagine this could be done pretty easily by doing a count of houses.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Roger Pearse

I cannot say that I know a lot about how ancient poll-taxes worked. But if you are a ruler, and you are assessing taxes based on headcount, won't you become really rather interested in how many people exist? Conversely if you are the village headman, won't you become very interested in ensuring that whatever taxes are levied, for which you are responsible, are based on not more than the number of people who really exist?

mountainman

Yes we are.

What does Justin tell us about historical reality? What does this "author" say about a physical inscription on a statue he purports to be of Simon Magus erected by the senate of Rome? What does historical reality tell us today?



If you want a discussion of taxation from the fourth century there is some information here is an article about the Chrysargyron, which was a late poll tax.


Best wishes,


Pete

Ben C Smith

For convenience, here are the texts on the acts of Pontius Pilate.

Justin, Apology 1.35.8-9:

Και μετα το σταυρωσαι αυτον εβαλον κληρον επι τον ιματισμον αυτου, και εμερισαντο εαυτοις οι σταυρωσαντες αυτον. και ταυτα οτι γεγονε δυνασθε μαθειν εκ των επι ∏οντιου ∏ιλατου γενομενων ακτων.

And after he was crucified they cast lots for his clothing, and those who had crucified him divided them. And that these things came to pass you can learn from the Acts made in the time of Pontius Pilate.

Justin, Apology 1.48.1-3:

Οτι δε και θεραπευσειν πασας νοσους και νεκρους ανεγερειν ο ημετερος Χριστος προεφητευθη, ακουσατε των λελεγμενων· εστι δε ταυτα· Τη παρουσια αυτου αλειται χωλος ως ελαφος, και τρανη εσται γλωσσα μογιλαλων· τυφλοι αναβλεψουσι και λεπροι καθαρισθησονται και νεκροι αναστησονται και περιπατησουσιν. οτι δε ταυτα εποιησεν εκ των επι ∏οντιου ∏ιλατου γενομενων ακτων μαθειν δυνασθε.

But, that it was also prophesied that our Christ would heal all diseases and raise dead people, listen to the things that have been said. These things are: At his advent a lame man shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the stammerer shall be clear; blind men shall see and lepers shall be cleansed and dead men shall resurrect and walk around. And that he did these things you can learn from the Acts made in the time of Pontius Pilate.

(The scriptural reference (what has been said) is originally to Isaiah 35.5-6, but mention of lepers being cleansed and the dead rising has infiltrated from Matthew 11.5 = Luke 7.22.)

Tertullian, Apology 21.24a:

Ea omnia super Christo Pilatus, et ipse iam pro sua conscientia Christianus, Caesari tunc Tiberio nuntiavit.

All these things* concerning Christ Pilate, even himself already a Christian in his own conscience, announced to Tiberius, who was then Caesar.

* These things are, from context, his ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension.

And here are the texts on the census records.

Justin, Apology 1.34.2:

Κωμη δε τις εστιν εν τη χωρα Ιουδαιων απεχουσα σταδιους τριακοντα πεντε Ιεροσολυμων, εν η εγεννηθη Ιησους Χριστος, ως και μαθειν δυνασθε εκ των απογραφων των γενομενων επι Κυρηνιου, του υμετερου εν Ιουδαια πρωτου γενομενου επιτροπου.

And there is a certain village in the country of the Jews, at a distance of thirty-five stades from Jerusalem, in which was born Jesus Christ, as you can learn from the census lists made in the time of Cyrenius, who was your first governor in Judea.

Tertullian, Against Marcion 4.7.7a:

Et tamen quomodo in synagogam potuit admitti tam repentinus, tam ignotus, cuius nemo adhuc certus de tribu, de populo, de domo, de censu denique Augusti, quem testem fidelissimum dominicae nativitatis Romana archiva custodiunt?

And again how could he have been admitted into the synagogue, appearing so suddenly, so unknown, of whom no one till then was certain of his tribe, of his people, of his house, or even of census of Augustus, which the Roman archives keep in custody as a most faithful witness to the dominical nativity?

From Tertullian, Against Marcion 4.19.10:

Sed et census constat actos sub Augusto nunc in Iudaea per Sentium Saturninum, apud quos genus eius inquirere potuissent.

But it is established also that censuses had now been enacted under Augustus in Judea through Sentius Saturninus, about which they could have inquired of his race.

Amaleq13 is correct to note that Tertullian knows Justin Martyr (refer to Against the Valentinians 5.1). But not all the details in Tertullian come directly from Justin, though most can be deduced (for example, Tertullian could have assumed that the census records would have been kept in Rome, as he could have assumed that the acts of Pilate were a logbook kept by Pilate and reported to the imperator; but I have no idea right now where Tertullian got Saturninus when both the gospels and Justin have Quirinius).

Ben.

Roger Pearse

We must also recall that acta means official records, e.g. of court cases, not merely the genre of canonical and apocryphal narratives such as Acts, or the narratives such as The Acts of Paul and Thecla etc.