judge

Hi Peter...I have not claimed that it is in the Aramaic.

Here is an english translation of the Aramaic.

http://www.v-a.com/bible/acts-26.html

I'm having a couple of computer problems at the moment with some sites...but if you go to www.peshitta.com you will be able to check out the meaning of each word in the passage.

This site examines the western peshitto, which is a version of the eastern peshitta edited in places to bring it more into line with monophysitism. this verse should not be affected though.
If you find the version in the actual syriac script you can click on each word and you will be given the meaning/s.

Peter Kirby

I notice that the web site gives these words (from the Peshitta?):

26:14. "And we all fell on the ground, and I heard a voice that told me, in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? You are harsh in your oppression.'

Compare this with the New Living Translation (of the Greek):

26:14. We all fell down, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[1] `Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to fight against my will.[2] '
26:14a Or Hebrew.
26:14b Greek It is hard for you to kick against the oxgoads.

The original saying is given in a footnote.

I have in my possession "Today's English Version," which says:

26:14. "Saul, Saul! Why are you persecuting me? You are hurting yourself by hitting back, like an ox kicking against its owner's stick."

The original saying is changed and interpreted.

The Message has this translation:

Acts 26:14. We fell flat on our faces. Then I heard a voice in Hebrew: "Saul, Saul, why are you out to get me? Why do you insist on going against the grain?'

An English saying is substituted.

The Contemporary English Version reads:

Acts 26:14. We all fell to the ground. Then I heard a voice say to me in Aramaic, "Saul, Saul, why are you so cruel to me? It's foolish to fight against me!"

The original saying is obliterated in this translation.

My point is this: translators, when they aren't giving a word-for-word translation such as Darby's or Young's (or other more or less word-for-word translations like the RSV and NAB), are uncomfortable with the ancient Greek idiom, and so choose "dynamic equivalence" by trying to capture the sense of the original with an English phrasing that has similar effect today.

Making deductions about what the original text says from even a literal translation is risky business, but if you don't even know the philosophy behind the translation you are reading, it is downright foolish. Does the translator explain what his method is in doing his translation? Word for word, phrase for phrase, sentence for sentence, or what, and in what degree does he keep consistency in translating certain things, and how much does he modify the original word-pictures and idioms to make sense for the contemporary reader? I have no idea; I don't even know if the translator has a degree in Syriac or Aramaic. It certainly appears that he has done his work of translation without the review of other ancient language specialists, which is a bad sign if one wants to use the translation for text-critical arguments.

What would be very useful would be if you could post an image of the Aramaic for this line (of course saying where it came from) and indicate what the individual words mean, so that we know what the original said on your hypothesis.

That's a very nice site! A very similar setup to Perseus (for Greek and Latin).

James Murdock gives this translation (from the site you indicated):

26:14. And we all fell to the ground; and I heard a voice, which said to me, in Hebrew: Saul, Saul ! why persecutest thou me ? It will be a hard thing for thee to kick against the goads.

John Wesley Etheridge gives this translation (from the same site):

And we fell all of us upon the earth; and I heard a voice that said to me in Hebrew, Shaol, Shaol, why persecutest thou me ? 9 It is hard to thee to kick against the pricks !

Here is the relevant line in Syriac:

WoAOoL 20354 WoAOoL 20354 MoNoA 12204 RoD,eI, 29658 AaN_T' 23324 Li; 10846 XWeA 19157 H_uO 5030 LoC, 10847 LaMB,aEoYuO 3054 LEuOXSeA 15407

20354: Saul
12204: what, why
29658: persecute
23324: thou
10846: to, for [first person]

19157: rough, hard, strong
5030: he, it, is [third person]
10847: to, for [second person]
3054: kick
15407: sting, goad [plural]

By all appearances, the Greek idiom is found in the Peshitt(o|a) version.

best,
Peter Kirby

judge

Hi peter,
Yes very interesting indeed. As I mentioned I was unable to access that site today. You definitely have me here
It gives me some stuff to follow up on though.

thanks...judge

Peter Kirby

Thanks for your gracious reply. I look forward to any information you might turn up.

best,
Peter Kirby

leftfist

At http://www.peshitta.org (rather than .com), there is an interlinear peshitta. Aramaic and English.

uh, crap. I just looked and apparently it is not complete. It only has the first 10 chapters of Acts. Oh well. Maybe it will be useful anyway.

Steven Carr

http://sguthrie.net/resurrection.htm

Shandon Guthrie writes :-
'For example, there is no evidence of any connections with the Jews of first century Palestine and pagan literature. What is clear from antiquity is that Jews surely distanced themselves from such influences.'

Another Christian apologist who tries to ignore what the Bible says when it suits him.......