Ubercat

Absolutely right. Convenient, how christians suddenly forget about predestination when they need to use free will in an argument. In a universe where bible god exists, free will would be an illusion.

-Ubercat

Ubercat

How strange that ALL religions have their miracles so far in the past, or at least far enough in the past as to be unverifiable.

-Ubercat

Sheshbazzar

Thank you for bringing it up again, This life provides each of us with a great abundance of opportunities to help out our fellow man, while he is yet alive.
Shrugging your shoulders while sitting in your comfortable chair, in front of your monitor, in your expensive surroundings, muttering "It's not my problem", does nothing to give that person a morsel of food, or that pennies worth of medication that will allow them to survive to another day, when perhaps the rains would come, the fields revive, and that person prosper and live, and love, many decades longer.

Sheshbazzar

For FAITH to be FAITH, it is necessary that it be accepted on faith, if the miracles were verifiable, and if men could on an instant, strike up and carry on a two way conversation with their Maker, then faith would not at all be needed, because the irrefutable evidence would be present and verifiable by all.
We believe in the promise of what has not yet been seen, and hold fast hope for what we have not yet received.

Sheshbazzar

Still waiting to hear your list of specific accusations.

spin

Here's where King Lear's fool is necessary.

Your innuendo is useless, nuncle. You dissociate yourself from most of the discussion with a pap definition of suffering, rendering your angst about your daughter's wedding present on the same level as the person dying from malnutrition. The cruelty we have been looking at is what forces people to suffer1. I have no interest whatsoever in your suffer2ing. I doubt that anyone else here has either. When you want to deal with the topic, start talking about suffer1ing.

Then get all vain-glorious about others' "disingenuous arrogance", because someone said that the individual saving the money for a cup of coffee for those in need is pissing into the wind. You are so far alienated from political reality, that the point was totally missed. While a country rapes and pillages other nations, some of its citizens give hand-outs to the victims. Talking about conscience-salving pissing into the wind! First you've got to stop the cowboys. Not only voting peace, but prosecuting those leaders responsible for flagrant violations and pushing for not aid but meaningful construction in suffer1ing nations.

West Papua is even worse off than Papua Niugini, but no-one goes there. Why not?

Still pushing for this hand-out approach to suffer1ing. Band-aids might have their place, but this is not one of them. (Band-aids work with suffer2ing.) The only way to alleviate suffer1ing is through political commitment.

"For every life that Peter and his pals save, George and his cadres kill a score. Save your coffee dollar for Peter and let George do his work."

Work to save the score. Save money by voting out a defence spending government, a war spending government which deceives its own population, and support effective equitable solutions for world problems. Humanity does not live by hand-outs alone.

The discussion about cruelty in this thread involves suffer1ing, not suffer2ing. No, not everyone suffer1s.


spin

Gamera

No no no. The Vedic mss are very young. All post-Christian. The speculation is they contain teachings that are pre-Christian. No way of knowing.

The Code of Hammurabi doesn't have the teaching I'm focussing on: loving one's enemies. So it's not relevant to the issue.

Gamera

Nope.

1. God commanded the Hebrews in their unregenerated state to do what they would only do anyway upon entering the promised land. As he separated Israel from the barbarism of the world, he demanded higher and higher ethical standards, so that by Isaiah's time, God demanded that they treat strangers with dignity, and to have special care for the weak and poor. A unique social development that found it's fruitiion in Matthew 5 which Jesus going all the way and saying love your enemies.

2. Yep, the God of the bible is portrayed as omnipotent and omniscient.

3. Nope, humans rarely do what God's wants, which is the consequences of God giving us free-will. God's omniscience doesn't negate our free will.

Gamera

Well, thanks for asking (though I'm telling you flat out, I don't have any special qualifications in "heavenology" and doubt anybody does -- I think we all suffer from the "cultural bible" which puts forth all kinds of ideas and images about "heaven" that has nothing to do with gospels or the Hebrew Scriptures.)

Amaleq13

The Hebrew Scriptures have stories where men who had exactly the relationship you deny exists today still apparently freely chose to do other than the Maker's will so human free will doesn't seem to be the crucial factor. So, why is a faith-based relationship with your Maker necessary and, presumably, superior to one that is empirically verifiable?