Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gnosis92 · 07-28-2006, 08:16 AM

I'm not sure what value those studies may have since I'm sure we humans, in order to have any kind of experience, involves parts of the brain. Is love any less real if you can show the part of the brain is involved in a PET scan?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoot Bree

Christian mysticism, yes, and Muslim, and Judaic.

But you're leaving out whole swaths of the world's religions that are based in mysticism, and do not have the west's personified godhood. Buddhism for largest and most obvious example, but all of the eastern religions are rooted more in mysticism than god(s).

Which is altogether better, IMO.

Although I agree with LadyShea that mystics are only communing with themselves, and I rely on the recent studies done which proved that stimulating certain parts of the brain can induce a state of religious ecstacy (one of these days I'm going to nail down a good website or two on this for reference); hey, whatever trips your trigger. If communing with the One makes you happy and keeps you off the streets (preaching at the rest of us), go for it.

gnosis92 · 07-28-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlOfLade

In a godless world?
Doesn't make sense at all.

The literature produced is often beautiful and inspiring but whether there is anything real about the experience I don't know.

EarlOfLade · 07-28-2006, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

The literature produced is often beautiful and inspiring but whether there is anything real about the experience I don't know.

Let me rephrase it correctly for you to understand:

"The literature produced is often beautiful and inspiring but there is nothing real about the experience."

There, now it's correct!

No Robots · 07-28-2006, 09:10 AM

Rufus Jones, the great scholar of mysticism, argues that there are two kinds of men: those who are inclined to mysticism, and those who see it as absurd and incomprehensible. The important thing is for each group to learn to leave the other in peace.

Here are some pertinent reflections:

That mysticism is frequently labeled as narcissistic is to misunderstand mysticism. Yes, it may make people not want to follow your rules. But in reality, mystical experiences provide an awareness to the interconnectedness of being. It's the preocupation with rules (shoulds and shouldn'ts) that is narcissistic. Not mysticism. That so many of us have mystical experiences but don't quite know what to do with them because mysticism is so negatively defined in our culture could explain the ever increasing rate of alcohol and drug abuse. Carl Jung said that alcoholics were frustrated mystics.

Barefoot Bree · 07-28-2006, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

I'm not sure what value those studies may have since I'm sure we humans, in order to have any kind of experience, involves parts of the brain. Is love any less real if you can show the part of the brain is involved in a PET scan?

OK, you've dissed the studies. Care to tackle the REST of my post about whether mysticism automatically denotes either the existence or the belief in God?

Alethias · 07-28-2006, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

In a Godless world, does mysticism have any value?

Mysticism is the pursuit of achieving communion or identity with, or conscious awareness of, ultimate reality, the divine, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, or insight; and the belief that such experience is an important source of knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.

One understanding of atheism is a denial of any transcedent God or deity, and hence of any such intuition or insight.

Mystical poetry and readings are often beautiful and exalted, from Meister Eckhart to Saint Augstine to the Psalms and the Gospel of John, but from the standpoint of atheism, is there any meaningfulness in mystical literature poetry or art? Is it still possible or desirable to have mystical experiences as an atheist, and if so, how would an atheist accommodate a mystical experience within a naturalistic worldview?

Any atheist here with a mystical experience? Any mystics who converted to atheism, how do you account for your intense spiritual experience?

I was an ordained minister and wore the title of prophet. Does that count?

Mystical experiences are primarily altered ways of perceiving reality that step outside the bounds of ordinary sensory perception, which is where the sense of transcendency comes in.

Not every aspect of mystical experiences is readily explainable; neither are many aspects of Peyote trips.

None of this supports the supernatural. One of the things that got me is that if some Christian Mystics are right, then all other mystics are wrong, regardles of the seeming truth and supernatural nature of their claims. This tends to apply across the board, since most religious mystics don't seem to be willing to acknowledge the validity of outside claims.

The other day I was walking along a creekbed near where I work during a break. Listening to the creek and the rustle of the leaves and the smells and everything all combined together to give me a sense or feel of the connectedness of everything and that I'm a minor cog in the function of everything. It was delightful. Yet i remain as much of a non-believer in any gods as ever.

Alethias.

gnosis92 · 07-28-2006, 12:19 PM

Sure it counts, there is no way to substantiate a mystical claim, but your experience of the creek is experiences I have, which makes me think there is more to this world than mere science.

Some Christian mystics, most famously Thomas Merton, believe in the validity of all mystical experiences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alethias

I was an ordained minister and wore the title of prophet. Does that count?

Mystical experiences are primarily altered ways of perceiving reality that step outside the bounds of ordinary sensory perception, which is where the sense of transcendency comes in.

Not every aspect of mystical experiences is readily explainable; neither are many aspects of Peyote trips.

None of this supports the supernatural. One of the things that got me is that if some Christian Mystics are right, then all other mystics are wrong, regardles of the seeming truth and supernatural nature of their claims. This tends to apply across the board, since most religious mystics don't seem to be willing to acknowledge the validity of outside claims.

The other day I was walking along a creekbed near where I work during a break. Listening to the creek and the rustle of the leaves and the smells and everything all combined together to give me a sense or feel of the connectedness of everything and that I'm a minor cog in the function of everything. It was delightful. Yet i remain as much of a non-believer in any gods as ever.

Alethias.

07-28-2006, 09:10 AM	#14
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Rufus Jones, the great scholar of mysticism, argues that there are two kinds of men: those who are inclined to mysticism, and those who see it as absurd and incomprehensible. The important thing is for each group to learn to leave the other in peace. Here are some pertinent reflections: That mysticism is frequently labeled as narcissistic is to misunderstand mysticism. Yes, it may make people not want to follow your rules. But in reality, mystical experiences provide an awareness to the interconnectedness of being. It's the preocupation with rules (shoulds and shouldn'ts) that is narcissistic. Not mysticism. That so many of us have mystical experiences but don't quite know what to do with them because mysticism is so negatively defined in our culture could explain the ever increasing rate of alcohol and drug abuse. Carl Jung said that alcoholics were frustrated mystics.

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