EarlDoherty

If either of you knew anything about Platonic and Jewish sectarian cosmology, you would realize that in Heb. 9:24, supported by how the “heavenly sacrifice in the heavenly sanctuary” is presented in that work, the entry into heaven by Jesus Can well be taken as speaking of his entry into the highest heaven which contains the abode of God and the heavenly sanctuary, from lower layers of the heavens. “Heaven”, regardless of whether the author uses the singular here, was not monolithic, above and against the layer of the universe constituting the earth. If you need textual proof of that, just look at Hebrews 4:14: “since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens" (plural).

By descending into the lowest, sublunar layer of the heavens, still above the earth but part of the realm of corruptibility, where a god could take on the “likeness” of humans and suffer and die, Christ could be (2:9) “for a little while lower than the angels” (whose abodes were above the moon).

And it is also too bad that neither of you (apparently) know Greek and can check translations against the original Greek text, because the Greek does not say “fully human in every way.” To the extent that the original text says that Christ “shared in like manner our flesh and blood,” the “in like manner” by definition means ‘similar to’ not ‘identical with’, and the ‘in every way’ is a Greek phrase (kata panta) which does not possess the unalloyed unambiguity in this context which historicists like to claim for it. The “flesh and blood” need merely be a spiritual equivalent (which concept can be found in spiritual applications in both Jewish and pagan philosophy) in order to serve the purpose which is the only thing mentioned and in view by the writer: Christ’s acts of suffering and death and other things which can be located entirely in the various layers of heaven. Nowhere is it made to serve purposes which are stipulated as, or required to be, earthly and material, the latter never appearing in the thought of Hebrews. Even the concept of Christ the High Priest undergoing “temptation” can be seen to apply only in regard to obeying God and undergoing his task of redemptive death—again in the venue of the heavenly world.

Perhaps if you knew a little more about the mythicist case, about ancient cosmology and philosophy, about the Greek original texts, you wouldn’t come across as so smug and self-confident about your historicist convictions and about alleged mythicist charlatanry.

Earl Doherty

archibald

Earl,

What support for your take on all that stuff have you received from Classical scholars, professional philosophers, academics etc?

Specifically for analogies/precedents for the Jesus story representing a narrative set in the sublunar realm?

I accept that such a realm was conceived of, of course.

MCalavera

I agree with you about the fully human bit. The NIV translation is misleading. But I didn't mean to have you focus on the fully human bit but more on the overall context suggesting the Apostolic belief of Jesus' humanity which, as expected, you reject by assuming spiritual meanings when the context suggests literal.

And I see "heaven" or "heavens" (same thing really), not "lower or higher levels of heaven".

It seems every word that goes against your view has to have a spiritual meaning and not a literal one (even if the context suggests otherwise). And you claim that this backed up by some cosmological sources without you attempting to provide evidence for any connection between those sources and what you think the Hebrews text in chapter 2 or 9 or other chapters suggests.

I don't think that's how [proper] scholarship works.

MCalavera

Arrogance is rejecting literal meanings when the context suggests it, simply because the literal meanings go against what you accept.

spin

You've shoved your foot down your own throat preventing yourself from being able to take this defense when you refused to look at any evidence. This is the "there is no evidence, because I don't want there to be" defense. If you don't notice the blowback, it's because your blinkers are too big.
:hitsthefan:

:hysterical:

judge

I don't think earl is claiming to be a scholar though, rather an amatuer who self publishes, frequents internet forums and chooses to avoid scholarly processes like peer review.
At least that's how I understand how he sees himself. I don't think earl would disagree with this.

judge

Seems like you have already decided that Carriers book conclusively shows something even though you haven't read it. :huh:

And who knows, it may never come out.

MCalavera

Hahahaha, nice one.

Now back to serious discussion ...

Steven Carr

And your point , while your quotes support Doherty in every way possible, is....?

How exactly did Jesus enter Heaven to make atonement when he was supposedly crucified on Earth?

Or was there a 'Jerusalem above us' as Paul clearly states in a passage that historicists just never ever under any circumstances want to discuss?

And once again the early references to Jesus 'humanity' are theologically driven.

Jesus had to be just like us. Therefore Jesus was just like us. The context suggests this is theology, not reports about a wandering preacher.

This is no more evidence of a real Jesus existing on Earth than claims that God walked in the Garden of Eden are evidence of a real God existing on Earth.

Of course, there are people who insist that if the text says God walked in the Garden of Eden, then the literal interpretation that God lived on Earth is something that can only be denied by people who need to ignore the evidence for deep-seated psychological reasons.

Those people who insist on the most simple-minded literalism and castigate anybody who is not also an advocate of the most simple-minded literalism are not people who actually understand theology.

Steven Carr

Dear me....

We have somebody who is denying that Jews thought of lower or higher levels of heaven.

Time for some education (I ought to charge money, I really should)

2 Corinthians 12

Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.

The third heaven...

And Paul states pretty much outright that his Jesus was a spiritual being from whom you could get revelations.