Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Does the Biblical witness really say that one has to be dead to see god?

No but the SP tends to reinforce the view that God can't be seen, wasn't seen by the Israelites.

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 09:46 AM

Some random thoughts. When Jacob wrestled with the angel, and held his own, wrestling right through the night, the angel gave him the name Yisra’el, which is in form the name of an angel. There is an ancient text called The Ladder of Jacob preserved only in part, from the second c. B.C.E. that expands on the concept of Jacob as an angel. The same concept is prominent in mediaeval Jewish texts. I take it that Jacob was not quite equal to the angel he wrestled with. As that angel was the Angel of the Presence (read the passage carefully and you will see it) then Jacob-Yisra’el was the angel embodying the world, as opposed to the angel containing the germ of the world, the Angel of the Presence. Otherwise, Jacob-Yisra’el was the earthly reflection of the Angel of the Presence. The two explanations are compatible with each other. The second explanation is the traditional one. It is usually set forth in the observation that it does not say the angels were going up and coming down. It says the angels were going down and coming up. This means they came down , saw Jacob-Yisra’el’s face [the word translated “presence” is literally “face”, recognised it, and went back up to compare it with the original.

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 09:50 AM

But perhaps against the idea that Jacob only saw the Angel of the Presence is Clement's statement:

Quote:

Again, when He speaks in His own person, He confesses Himself to be the Instructor: "I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt." [Ex 20.2] Who, then, has the power of leading in and out? Is it not (Jesus) the Instructor? This was He who appeared to Abraham, and said to him, "I am thy God, be accepted before Me;" and in a way most befitting an instructor, forms him into a faithful child, saying, "And be blameless; and I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and try seed." There is the communication of the Instructor's friendship (philias). And He most manifestly appears as Jacob's instructor. He says accordingly to him, "Lo, I am with thee, to keep thee in all the way in which thou shalt go; and I will bring thee back into this land: for I will not leave thee till I do what I have told thee." He is said, too, to have wrestled with Him. "And Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled with him a man till the morning." This was the man who led, and brought, and wrestled with, and anointed the athlete Jacob against evil. Now that the Word was at once Jacob's trainer and the Instructor of humanity (appears from this)--"He asked," it is said, "His name, and said to him, Tell me what is Try name." And he said, "Why is it that thou askest My name?" For He reserved the new name for the new people--the babe; and was as yet unnamed, the Lord God not having yet become man. Yet Jacob called the name of the place, "Face of God." "For I have seen," he says, "God face to face; and my life is preserved." The face of God is the Word by whom God is manifested and made known. Then also was he named Israel, because he saw God the Lord. It was God, the Word, the Instructor, who said to him again afterwards, "Fear not to go down into Egypt." See how the Instructor follows the righteous man, and how He anoints the athlete, teaching him to trip up his antagonist.[20]

On second thought maybe this reinforces the whole notion.

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 10:01 AM

In case you are going to claim that the Samaritans are a hobby horse here is a text associated with Philo by Anastasius of Sinai:

Quote:

I am going to adopt and appropriate the role of Paul of Samosata for you, or, better, that of the unbelieving Jew Philo, the philosopher; for he argued against the divinity of Christ with Mnason, the disciple of the apostles, and called Mnason dichrota:

"What argument, what sort of argument, and from what source (comes) any argument to the effect that the Christ is God? Should you adduce his birth from a virgin, without seed as they say, the begetting of Adam (appears) more noble and more striking, a formation by the very hands of God and a vivifieation through God's own breath, and it was purer than the nine-month fetation of Jesus in his mother (terminating in) filth and wails and mess. Should you adduce the signs he performed after his baptism, I would say to you that no one on earth ever performed such signs and wonders as did Moses for a period of forty years. Should you then point out that Jesus raised the dead, well, the prophet Ezekiel raised up from the dry bones of the army of dead men a numberless people. Moreover, Jesus himself said that some men would perform greater works than he. Now if you tell us that Jesus was taken up into the heavens as God, surely the prophet Elias was taken up more gloriously in a blazing chariot and with horses of fire. Calling Jesus the God of heaven must be reckoned as the most outrageous of your blasphemies, for God Himself said to Moses that "No man shall see my face and live." Further, our Scripture witnesses that "No one has ever seen God. No man has seen or is able to see God." How is it that Christian preachers are not ashamed to proclaim Jesus as God? For it is said that God is a consuming fire. Tell me, then, does a God of fire hunger? Does a God of fire thirst? Does a God of fire spit? Is a God of fire circumcised and does he bleed? And does he cast on the ground bits of flesh and blood and the refuse of the stomach? All such things were cast to the ground by Jesus and were eaten up and consumed by dogs, sometimes by wild beasts and birds, and trampled on by cattle. Every bit of his flesh that was cast off and discarded, whether it was sputum or nail-cuttings or blood or sweat or tears, was a part and portion naturally associated with the body and sloughed off or discarded in due process of growth. Indeed you say that he was like men in all things according to the flesh apart from sin. Yet you preach that he who was dead for three days was God. And what sort of a God who is a consuming fire can die? Why his very servants, the angels, cannot die, neither can the evil spirits of the demons, nor, for that matter, the souls of men. To press the matter, I ask: What sort of God, having the power of life and death, would take to flight—as Jesus fled from Herod lest he be put to death as an infant? What sort of God is tempted by the devil for forty days? What sort of God becomes a curse, which is what Paul says of Jesus? What sort of sinless God commits sin? For, according to you, Jesus became sin for our sake. And if he is God, how is it that he prayed to escape the cup of death? And his prayer was not heard. If he is God, how can he speak as one abandoned by God: "O God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Is God abandoned by God? Does God need God (as would appear) when he says "Do not abandon my soul to the nether world"? Is God (such as to be) tied up, and abused and despised and put to death? If he was indeed God, he should have crushed those intending to take him prisoner, just as the angel crushed the Sodomites (who threatened) Lot. But you call the helplessness of Jesus "long-suffering."

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 10:03 AM

The Samaritan view is clearly that God was never seen, can't be seen. It seems also to be Philo's view (where the Lord and God are argued to be names of powers of the ultimate God, and not the One).

stephan huller · 04-22-2013, 08:48 PM

I found Loeb edition of some of Philo on line. http://www.scribd.com/doc/108862263/...enesis-2-and-3

Even more here - http://www.scribd.com/donny_donowitz

Clivedurdle · 04-23-2013, 04:52 AM

Was Moses dead when he saw God's backside?

stephan huller · 04-23-2013, 06:34 AM

no. but its his backside

Clivedurdle · 04-23-2013, 06:47 AM

OK then, who was Jacob wrestling with?

http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/...e-angel-t07139

Clivedurdle · 04-23-2013, 06:50 AM

And are we not looking at an evolution in the idea of god? One who walks in the garden of Eden, then sons of the gods knowing women, Noah chatting with God, later God becomes Holy behind the veil?

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04-22-2013, 09:46 AM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Some random thoughts. When Jacob wrestled with the angel, and held his own, wrestling right through the night, the angel gave him the name Yisra’el, which is in form the name of an angel. There is an ancient text called The Ladder of Jacob preserved only in part, from the second c. B.C.E. that expands on the concept of Jacob as an angel. The same concept is prominent in mediaeval Jewish texts. I take it that Jacob was not quite equal to the angel he wrestled with. As that angel was the Angel of the Presence (read the passage carefully and you will see it) then Jacob-Yisra’el was the angel embodying the world, as opposed to the angel containing the germ of the world, the Angel of the Presence. Otherwise, Jacob-Yisra’el was the earthly reflection of the Angel of the Presence. The two explanations are compatible with each other. The second explanation is the traditional one. It is usually set forth in the observation that it does not say the angels were going up and coming down. It says the angels were going down and coming up. This means they came down , saw Jacob-Yisra’el’s face [the word translated “presence” is literally “face”, recognised it, and went back up to compare it with the original.

04-22-2013, 10:03 AM	#15
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Samaritan view is clearly that God was never seen, can't be seen. It seems also to be Philo's view (where the Lord and God are argued to be names of powers of the ultimate God, and not the One).

04-22-2013, 08:48 PM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I found Loeb edition of some of Philo on line. http://www.scribd.com/doc/108862263/...enesis-2-and-3 Even more here - http://www.scribd.com/donny_donowitz

04-23-2013, 04:52 AM	#17
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Was Moses dead when he saw God's backside?

04-23-2013, 06:34 AM	#18
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	no. but its his backside

04-23-2013, 06:47 AM	#19
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	OK then, who was Jacob wrestling with? http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/...e-angel-t07139

04-23-2013, 06:50 AM	#20
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And are we not looking at an evolution in the idea of god? One who walks in the garden of Eden, then sons of the gods knowing women, Noah chatting with God, later God becomes Holy behind the veil?

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