Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 02-06-2013, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Conybeare's translation (available at about the contemplative life ) contains a long argument about authenticity.

Once again many thanks Andrew.

aa5874 · 02-06-2013, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Honestly. I know what sort of a mind you possess. It works up to a point and then ---.

Let me break it down for you. Let's suppose I wrote a restaurant review. The restaurant is in Seattle and you have never been to Seattle so I am your window to the world so to speak - just like Philo was for Eusebius.

I start of by saying that it is a Chinese restaurant. I say that it has all sort of noodle dishes, Chinese broccoli in oyster sauce. One can also get Jasmine tea etc.

Okay so far.

Then you, aa, tell your friends about this place. You've never been here but again - based upon my report - you tell your readers that it is a Szechuan restaurant in which all the menus appear in Chinese characters. If you only speak English, you tell your friends, you have to ask one particular waiter named 'Jackie' and he will help you.

Now your friends are going to Seattle so they are really interested in finding out about this restaurant and they Google my name (because you told them you read my review) and nothing else on the internet. They notice the discrepancies and wonder - whose telling the truth? Who should we believe?

Since they know I am your source, your friends are probably going to take my review as 'certainly true' and all the stuff in your review which differs from my account with a grain of salt because (a) they know you are nuts and (b) you've never been to Seattle, never been to this restaurant.

The same thing is true in antiquity with respect to Philo and Eusebius. Philo is the only guy who saw the Therapeutae, Eusebius - a known exaggerator - makes the connection with early Christianity. Maybe it is true, maybe it is half true, maybe its made up. We don't know.

Your analogy is hopelessly irrelevant.

Just read Philo's "On the Contemplative Life".

Just Examine it for yourself.

It does not state anywhere that the Therapeutae were Jews or of Jewish origin.

When a matter is investigated one does review analogies but the ACTUAL Text and relevant sources.

No writer of antiquity claimed Philo's Therapeutae were Jews or Essenes.

Again, it is corroborated by Jewish and Roman writers that it was the Essenes that were Jews or of Jewish origin.

See "Wars of the Jews" and "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus and Natural History by Pliny the Elder.

stephan huller · 02-06-2013, 08:12 PM

But I've already shown that there are obvious Jewish references in the text and then some not so obvious (the 364 day calendar, the shrine in the monastery etc). You just have to know something about the transmission of Judaism and Jewish Christianity down the Nile.

If the Essenes were Jewish then the group that Philo connects with the Essenes, the Therapeutai, are also Jewish. Eusebius says as much when he says that it makes sense that the Therapeutai should be Christians because like the apostles they were Hebrews.

stephan huller · 02-06-2013, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

No writer of antiquity claimed Philo's Therapeutae were Jews or Essenes.

Go see a doctor:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eusebius

It is also said that Philo in the reign of Claudius became acquainted at Rome with Peter, who was then preaching there. Nor is this indeed improbable, for the work of which we have spoken (= VC), and which was composed by him some years later (i.e. later than the reign of Claudius = c. 60 CE), clearly contains those rules of the Church which are even to this day observed among us. And since he describes as accurately as possible the life of our ascetics (= the Therapeutae), it is clear that he not only knew, but that he also approved, while he venerated and extolled, the apostolic men of his time, who were as it seems of the Hebrew race, and hence observed, after the manner of the Jews, the most of the customs of the ancients. In the work to which he gave the title, On a Contemplative Life or on Suppliants, after affirming in the first place that he will add to those things which he is about to relate nothing contrary to truth or of his own invention, he says that these men were called Therapeutæ and the women that were with them Therapeutrides. He then adds the reasons for such a name, explaining it from the fact that they applied remedies and healed the souls of those who came to them, by relieving them like physicians, of evil passions, or from the fact that they served and worshipped the Deity in purity and sincerity. Whether Philo himself gave them this name, employing an epithet well suited to their mode of life, or whether the first of them really called themselves so in the beginning, since the name of Christians was not yet everywhere known, we need not discuss here.

We needn't think then that the community was even called 'therapeutai' necessarily. It could have been a name that Philo gave to the sect.

Sheshbazzar · 02-06-2013, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

...the shrine in the monastery etc).

Quote:

(25) And in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place, and the monastery in which they retire by themselves and perform all the mysteries of a holy life...

Sorry stephan but if this is a proper translation, it does not at all seem to be saying what you are stating.

Perhaps you are reading it from a Greek text, and your translation direct from Greek does not agree with this English translation we have been supplied with?

Does the Greek of your text indicate "in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place"?

or that there was just "the shrine in the monastery"?

Is the Greek text that unclear on the distinction?

stephan huller · 02-06-2013, 09:32 PM

My friend Harry Tzalas told me from his underwater research in Chatby (on the eastern shores of Alexandria in the traditional Jewish quarters) that he could not only see the remains of St Mark's church but a massive housing complex of people who lived and worked in the compound that surrounded the church. Recent scholarship on monastic living in the fourth century reveals a great variety of living arrangements. I don't feel like condensing the work of various experts I know personally including Claudia Rapp. You don't care about any of this. But the general consensus is that monks lived in many different ways. The idea of there being many houses for monks with a shrine isn't strange

stephan huller · 02-06-2013, 09:39 PM

Quote:

the shrine in the monastery

I was talking about the Ethiopian monastery.

Sheshbazzar · 02-06-2013, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

We needn't think then that the community was even called 'therapeutai' necessarily. It could have been a name that Philo gave to the sect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philo 'VC'

(2) but the deliberate intention of the philosopher is at once displayed from the appellation given to them; for with strict regard to etymology, they are called therapeutae and therapeutrides,

Philo seems quite clear that he is not one that is giving them this name or title, but that "they are called therapeutae and therapeutrides," IE by others.

Sheshbazzar · 02-06-2013, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

...the shrine in the monastery etc).

Quote:

(25) And in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place, and the monastery in which they retire by themselves and perform all the mysteries of a holy life...

Sorry stephan but if this is a proper translation, it does not at all seem to be saying what you are stating.

Perhaps you are reading it from a Greek text, and your translation direct from Greek does not agree with this English translation we have been supplied with?

Does the Greek of your text indicate "in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place"?

or that there was just "the shrine in the monastery"?

Is the Greek text that unclear on the distinction?

I was talking about the Ethiopian monastery.

I'm sorry stephan but I think you are going to have to further clarify your thoughts for a simpleton like me.

The context was a discussion of Philo's writings in De vita contemplativa.

at least that was what I understood to be what you and aa5874 were discussing in Post #649 when you responded with this reply;

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller post #650

But I've already shown that there are obvious Jewish references in the text and then some not so obvious (the 364 day calendar, the shrine in the monastery etc). You just have to know something about the transmission of Judaism and Jewish Christianity down the Nile.

The only monastery that I am aware of in Philo's De vita contemplativa is;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philo "VC"

III. (21) Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt, in every one of the districts, or nomi as they are called, and especially around Alexandria;

(22) and from all quarters those who are the best of these therapeutae proceed on their pilgrimage to some most suitable place as if it were their country, which is beyond the Mareotic lake, lying in a somewhat level plain a little raised above the rest, being suitable for their purpose by reason of its safety and also of the fine temperature of the air.

(23) For the houses built in the fields and the villages which surround it on all sides give it safety; and the admirable temperature of the air proceeds from the continual breezes which come from the lake which falls into the sea, and also from the sea itself in the neighbourhood, the breezes from the sea being light, and those which proceed from the lake which falls into the sea being heavy, the mixture of which produces a most healthy atmosphere.

(24) But the houses of these men thus congregated together are very plain, just giving shelter in respect of the two things most important to be provided against, the heat of the sun, and the cold from the open air;

and they did not live near to one another as men do in cities, for immediate neighbourhood to others would be a troublesome and unpleasant thing to men who have conceived an admiration for, and have determined to devote themselves to, solitude;

and, on the other hand, they did not live very far from one another on account of the fellowship which they desire to cultivate, and because of the desirableness of being able to assist one another if they should be attacked by robbers.

(25) And in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place, and the monastery in which they retire by themselves...

When you say that you -'was talking about the Ethiopian monastery'- were you talking about the monastery here mentioned in Philo?
or some other unidentified Etheopian monastery that was located somewhere else?

aa5874 · 02-06-2013, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

No writer of antiquity claimed Philo's Therapeutae were Jews or Essenes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Go see a doctor..

You may have to see a lawyer and a doctor.

I will expose what you have done. You have Inserted the words (='VC') and (= 'Therapeutae'), (i.e. later than the reign of Claudius = c. 60 CE), in "Church History" 2.17 when there are no such words in the passage at those lines. You have effectively mutilated the passage to change its meaning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eusebius

It is also said that Philo in the reign of Claudius became acquainted at Rome with Peter, who was then preaching there. Nor is this indeed improbable, for the work of which we have spoken (= VC), and which was composed by him some years later (i.e. later than the reign of Claudius = c. 60 CE), clearly contains those rules of the Church which are even to this day observed among us. And since he describes as accurately as possible the life of our ascetics (= the Therapeutae), it is clear that he not only knew, but that he also approved, while he venerated and extolled, the apostolic men of his time, who were as it seems of the Hebrew race, and hence observed, after the manner of the Jews, the most of the customs of the ancients.

Now examine Church History2.17 WITHOUT your alterations and additions.

There is NO mention of the Therapeutae in Church History 2.17.1 and 2.17.2.

Eusebius referred to "OUR ASCETICS"--THE CHRISTIANS.

[u]Church History 2.17.1

Quote:

. It is also said that Philo in the reign of Claudius became acquainted at Rome with Peter, who was then preaching there. Nor is this indeed improbable, for the work of which we have spoken, and which was composed by him some years later, clearly contains those rules of the Church which are even to this day observed among us.

2. And since he describes as accurately as possible the life of our ascetics, it is clear that he not only knew, but that he also approved, while he venerated and extolled, the apostolic men of his time, who were as it seems of the Hebrew race, and hence observed, after the manner of the Jews, the most of the customs of the ancients.

Please, you may need to see a good doctor and lawyer--Eusebius argued that Philo was decribing the LIFE of the Christians--Our Ascetics.

I cannot regard you as credible because you added words to "Church History" 2.17 which were never there.

You very well know that you are NOT allowed to alter the passage or add your personal interpretation.

You very well knew in advance of posting that no writer of antiquity claimed Philo's Terapeutae were Jews or of Jewish origin.

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02-06-2013, 08:12 PM	#633
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But I've already shown that there are obvious Jewish references in the text and then some not so obvious (the 364 day calendar, the shrine in the monastery etc). You just have to know something about the transmission of Judaism and Jewish Christianity down the Nile. If the Essenes were Jewish then the group that Philo connects with the Essenes, the Therapeutai, are also Jewish. Eusebius says as much when he says that it makes sense that the Therapeutai should be Christians because like the apostles they were Hebrews.

02-06-2013, 09:32 PM	#636
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	My friend Harry Tzalas told me from his underwater research in Chatby (on the eastern shores of Alexandria in the traditional Jewish quarters) that he could not only see the remains of St Mark's church but a massive housing complex of people who lived and worked in the compound that surrounded the church. Recent scholarship on monastic living in the fourth century reveals a great variety of living arrangements. I don't feel like condensing the work of various experts I know personally including Claudia Rapp. You don't care about any of this. But the general consensus is that monks lived in many different ways. The idea of there being many houses for monks with a shrine isn't strange

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