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09-24-2011, 12:33 PM | #21 | |||
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I said the passages in the OP (#1) were excerpts and gave a link to the whole essay. Here's my response in the essay to your handling of Goodacre's "editorial fatigue". Quote:
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09-27-2011, 01:55 PM | #22 | |
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For our Q that we define as the overlap between Matthew and Luke, we know that there is a small portion of narrative, mostly about John the Baptist. Thus the discovery of gThomas in 1946 should have raised the question not only whether our Q was too narrowly defined to exclude what in gThomas is also in Mark, but whether the historical text of Q included large portions of Mark. gThomas has no narrative to speak of, so the omission of narrative that is in Mark does not mean that significant narrative was absent from the historical Q. Much of the Triple Tradition can reasonably be considered to be part of it, namely the portion called by some scholars the Twelve-Source. (The word “Twelve” is used in place of “apostles” or “disciples”. It is distinct from the portions about Peter that old scholars called Ur-Marcus.) This narrative portion, if in Q, would also reasonably be regarded as from a later stage of Q. After all, a scribe can write down what someone says while it is being said, but writing about events that have happened necessarily comes later. I’m acknowledging that various strata of Q may exist. Personally I have little use, however, for assigning stages of Q by ideological preference. I do accept stylistic comparisons as useful for differentiating strata. The most important is that there was an early stage of Q in Aramaic that can be identified by contrasting translations into the Greek in gMatthew and gLuke. The later stage originally written in Greek is also notable for an increased interest in John the Baptist, Satan, and eschatology. |
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09-29-2011, 06:56 AM | #23 | |||
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Best, Jiri |
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09-29-2011, 11:13 AM | #24 | ||||
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Style is often employed with an agenda, but noting whether passages are basically exact or not is not particularly subjective. Where the parallels are inexact, we probably have contrasting translations from another language. Where they are exact and seem to be later additions, they were more likely added to the text in Greek. The best examples of this exactness between gMatthew and gLuke is whatever of Q occurs between Matthew 23:23 and 24:51 and the following passages (often about John the Baptist) in Luke: 3:7-9, 16-17; 6:36-38, 41-42; 7:22-28; 10:13-15; and 11:24-26. So that is a statement of fact. That the rest of Q is inexact tends to show it was originally in Aramaic--it's more than just a wish, but short of a statement of fact. That Q apparently had literary stages of course enhances the Q theory. |
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09-29-2011, 11:59 AM | #25 | ||
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Best Jiri |
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09-29-2011, 01:43 PM | #26 | |||
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refutations, it's up to you to provide them rather than asking me for idle speculation about why the improbable may be true. To me it seems that those who deny the Q Hypothesis have a preset agenda for strict orthodoxy or radical anti-orthodoxy. |
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09-30-2011, 01:13 PM | #27 |
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09-30-2011, 08:49 PM | #28 | |
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"One commonly hears that there are no Q passages in the Gospel of Mark. This is incorrect. The discovery of the complete text of the Gospel of Thomas at Nag Hammadi in 1946 revealed sayings in it that are in Mark, and not just from Matthew and Luke. Although this could mean that the text of Thomas was based on the completed Synoptic Gospels, close study shows that it is more likely that the parts of Thomas that overlap the canonical Gospels are based on a source text they share in common, namely Q or some variant thereof. Unless the writer of Thomas also had access to Ur-Marcus, this shows that Thomas picked up some of the same parables from Q that Mark included. It thus seems that Ur-Marcus was almost completely narrative text with even fewer sayings than we commonly attribute to Mark. The Q Source could have been written very early. It was written in Aramaic, judging by the sections that Mark and Luke have in common that lack verbal exactitude. The word “Twelve” (meaning the 12 Apostles) appears so often in this that it is commonly called the Twelve-Source. The name Matthew (or Levi) occurs where this text begins (as at Luke 5:27), and early external tradition names the writer as this Matthew, so this material could have been from an eye-witness or could even have been first put in writing during the lifetime of Jesus." http://megasociety.org/noesis/181.htm#Common See also my section on Q in one of my other three article there: http://megasociety.org/noesis/181.htm#Underlying |
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09-30-2011, 11:07 PM | #29 | |
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Look, Adam, you are a newbie here. When we start a thread on FRDB, it is to pursue specific interests we have as individual posters. The reason I started this thread was to explore specific issues with Earl Doherty's (who is a self-published author and a frequent visitor here) touching on the existence of Q. If you want to read Earl's book and want to comment on the aspects I raised here, fine: be my guest. But I am not really interested in faith-based testimonials hijacking my OP. Hope, you understand and will respect the debating rules here. Best, Jiri |
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