Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sschlichter · 07-17-2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rizdek

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Matthew says they left the tomb quickly. This is what Mark said. Who said they ran quickly?

Matthew and Mark

Quote:

Mark 16
8And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.

I equate fled with run. Did they leave quickly and then run slowly?

why would you equate fled from the sepulchre with run to the disciples?

It does not say ran quickly (as you have once stated)

It does not say ran immediately (as you have once stated)

if I say I drove to work, can you tell if I stopped for breakfast?

If I say I drove quickly to work then you can expect I did not. (although, I may have stopped quickly for a coffee).

they fled from the tomb (probably freaked out), then out of fear decided not to tell anyone while (because) they were afraid. Matthew did not see this detail as important. He also did not see the detail of actually talking to the disciples as important. he actually only wrote a coupel of paragraphs on it and obviously was selective just not as selective as Mark but much more selective than John but there is nothing contradictory about it.

~Steve

sschlichter · 07-17-2008, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

One should note that the later stories of Easter were all developed from Mark's original story, in which no one sees the risen christ.

No, what should be noted as likely is that Mark was written earlier and Matt and Luke have drawn from him. the rest you made up.

Quote:

In Mark's gospel the women followers simply stare into a tomb that is empty.

The body could have been stolen by his followers, the women went to the wrong tomb. There could be many explanations of why the corpse was not there where they expected it to be.

All Mark says is that they will see Jesus when they return to Galilee, he makes no mention of who observed the risen christ.

What must not be forgotten is that the Romans usually buried the felons in a common burial site and there is no reason why Jesus would be buried differently.

That the followers of Jesus who expected this man to free them from the Roman yolk were disappointed and confused and could not accept that he was no more, and that their dreams of a kingdom of god was in tatters is when all the myths about his resurrection originated.

ok, not sure where to file your opinion here, but all the best to you.

~Steve

angelo · 07-18-2008, 03:37 AM

The end of Marks tale ends thus; ''As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. But he said to them, ''Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look, there is the place they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you.''

So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.''
[Mark 16;1-8]

That is the end of Marks gospel. There is no first witness of the risen christ, all that came later when the tale had time to evolve into Jesus being god himself by the the time John had written his version.

sschlichter · 07-18-2008, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

The end of Marks tale ends thus; ''As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. But he said to them, ''Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look, there is the place they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you.''

So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.''
[Mark 16;1-8]

That is the end of Marks gospel. There is no first witness of the risen christ, all that came later when the tale had time to evolve into Jesus being god himself by the the time John had written his version.

Mark's claim's to Jesus being the son of God

(Mark 1:11) And a voice came from heaven: "You are my one dear Son; in you I take great delight."

Mark's claim's to Jesus being the Holy One of God
(Mark 1:24) "Leave us alone, Jesus the Nazarene! Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are - the Holy One of God!"

Mark's claim's to Jesus' equality with God

(Mark 2:5) When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
(Mark 2:6) Now some of the experts in the law were sitting there, turning these things over in their minds:
(Mark 2:7) "Why does this man speak this way? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
(Mark 2:8) Now immediately, when Jesus realized in his spirit that they were contemplating such thoughts, he said to them, "Why are you thinking such things in your hearts?
(Mark 2:9) Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Stand up, take your stretcher, and walk'?
(Mark 2:10) But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins," - he said to the paralytic -

Mark's views on Jesus power over nature
(Mark 4:37) Now a great windstorm developed and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was nearly swamped.
(Mark 4:38) But he was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. They woke him up and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care that we are about to die?"
(Mark 4:39) So he got up and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Be quiet! Calm down!" Then the wind stopped, and it was dead calm.
(Mark 4:40) And he said to them, "Why are you cowardly? Do you still not have faith?"
(Mark 4:41) They were overwhelmed by fear and said to one another, "Who then is this? Even the wind and sea obey him!"

Mark thinks Jesus is the Messiah

(Mark 8:29) He asked them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, "You are the Christ."

Marks account of the transfiguration and prediction of raising from the dead
(Mark 9:7) Then a cloud overshadowed them, and a voice came from the cloud, "This is my one dear Son. Listen to him!"
(Mark 9:8) Suddenly when they looked around, they saw no one with them any more except Jesus.
(Mark 9:9) As they were coming down from the mountain, he gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
(Mark 9:10) They kept this statement to themselves, discussing what this rising from the dead meant.

Mark explains why Christ is greater than even David
While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he said, "How is it that the experts in the law say that the Christ is David's son?
(Mark 12:36) David himself, by the Holy Spirit, said,
' The Lord said to my lord,
" Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet." '
(Mark 12:37) If David himself calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" And the large crowd was listening to him with delight.

Mark says that Jesus has raised from the dead
(Mark 16:6) But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has been raised! He is not here. Look, there is the place where they laid him.

Are you sure Mark is not in agreement with the other gospels on the status, authority, death, and resurrection of Jesus?

Net2004 · 07-18-2008, 06:05 AM

Quote:

It does not say ran quickly

you don't need the adverb next to it cause the verb contains the adverb.
ran v
past tense of RUN
Run v
1.Move with a more rapid gait than walking
2.go quickly.

sschlichter · 07-18-2008, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

Quote:

It does not say ran quickly

you don't need the adverb next to it cause the verb contains the adverb.
ran v
past tense of RUN
Run v
1.Move with a more rapid gait than walking
2.go quickly.

If you do not need the adverb to go with it then why did you feel the need to keep adding words like quickly and immediately? I suggest that it is because you felt it was needed to convey the meaning that you needed.

Are you contending that whenever someone states that they are running or will run that it is always chronologically immediately after making the statement?

I am going for a run.

This means that I will be moving my legs rapidly but it does not mean that I am doing it at this moment.

I am going for a run immediately.

This means that I will be moving my legs (probably at the same speed as before) but I am doing it right now.

I am going for a run quickly.
This one could mean that I am running at a faster pace or I am running very soon at an undeclared pace.

I am going for a quick run.
This one could mean that I am running but probably only for a short time.

ran to tell the disciples.
This one actually tells us very little. It does not say immediately or quickly. the word run here could also mean even less than actually running; as in telling someone to run along which does not mean that you expect them to actually walk with a fast gait, it just means you want them to leave.

How quickly was Paul walking with a rapid gait when he used the same word in Phil 2:16?

angelo · 07-19-2008, 03:52 AM

On the intellectual side of religion and spirituality we are still dwelling in the lingering shadows of medieval night, hypnotized and victimized by superstition of the weirdest types flaunted from pulpit and seminary.

This beclouded day of gloom will continue as long as we have not the acumen to dissociate sublime myth, allegory, drama and symbol from the dregs of history.

___Alvin Boyd Kuhn_____

Those who lack discrimination may quote the letter of the Scripture, but they are really denying it's inner truth.

______The Bhagavada-Gita_____

thentian · 07-19-2008, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

you don't need the adverb next to it cause the verb contains the adverb.
ran v
past tense of RUN
Run v
1.Move with a more rapid gait than walking
2.go quickly.

If you do not need the adverb to go with it then why did you feel the need to keep adding words like quickly and immediately? I suggest that it is because you felt it was needed to convey the meaning that you needed.

Are you contending that whenever someone states that they are running or will run that it is always chronologically immediately after making the statement?

I am going for a run.

This means that I will be moving my legs rapidly but it does not mean that I am doing it at this moment.

I am going for a run immediately.

This means that I will be moving my legs (probably at the same speed as before) but I am doing it right now.

I am going for a run quickly.
This one could mean that I am running at a faster pace or I am running very soon at an undeclared pace.

I am going for a quick run.
This one could mean that I am running but probably only for a short time.

ran to tell the disciples.
This one actually tells us very little. It does not say immediately or quickly. the word run here could also mean even less than actually running; as in telling someone to run along which does not mean that you expect them to actually walk with a fast gait, it just means you want them to leave.

How quickly was Paul walking with a rapid gait when he used the same word in Phil 2:16?

I have no idea what the two of you are arguing about, but I think it is a little odd that you argue about the meanings of english words when you yourself have shown an ability to look up the greek earlier:

8) kai exelthousai ephugon apo tou mnēmeiou ...

kai - and, also, both, but, even, for, so

exelthousai - come forth, depart, escape, get out

ephugon - escape, flee away

apo - from

tou - the

mnēmeiou - grave, sepulcher, tomb

-

There shouldn't be much to argue about here.

Cheers!

sschlichter · 07-19-2008, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thentian

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

If you do not need the adverb to go with it then why did you feel the need to keep adding words like quickly and immediately? I suggest that it is because you felt it was needed to convey the meaning that you needed.

Are you contending that whenever someone states that they are running or will run that it is always chronologically immediately after making the statement?

I am going for a run.

This means that I will be moving my legs rapidly but it does not mean that I am doing it at this moment.

I am going for a run immediately.

This means that I will be moving my legs (probably at the same speed as before) but I am doing it right now.

I am going for a run quickly.
This one could mean that I am running at a faster pace or I am running very soon at an undeclared pace.

I am going for a quick run.
This one could mean that I am running but probably only for a short time.

ran to tell the disciples.
This one actually tells us very little. It does not say immediately or quickly. the word run here could also mean even less than actually running; as in telling someone to run along which does not mean that you expect them to actually walk with a fast gait, it just means you want them to leave.

How quickly was Paul walking with a rapid gait when he used the same word in Phil 2:16?

I have no idea what the two of you are arguing about, but I think it is a little odd that you argue about the meanings of english words when you yourself have shown an ability to look up the greek earlier:

8) kai exelthousai ephugon apo tou mnēmeiou ...

kai - and, also, both, but, even, for, so

exelthousai - come forth, depart, escape, get out

ephugon - escape, flee away

apo - from

tou - the

mnēmeiou - grave, sepulcher, tomb

-

There shouldn't be much to argue about here.

Cheers!

looking up the words does not help with figures of speech. I am responding in english because the words added to the text (quickly and immediately) were added in English.

thentian · 07-19-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

looking up the words does not help with figures of speech. I am responding in english because the words added to the text (quickly and immediately) were added in English.

Well, I don't see fleeing people hanging around for very long before they get to the fleeing part, and I also wonder how someone would flee slowly? I would guess they flee at a speed that is normal for people fleeing, namely running as fast as they can.

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07-18-2008, 03:37 AM	#703
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	The end of Marks tale ends thus; ''As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. But he said to them, ''Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look, there is the place they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you.'' So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.'' [Mark 16;1-8] That is the end of Marks gospel. There is no first witness of the risen christ, all that came later when the tale had time to evolve into Jesus being god himself by the the time John had written his version.

07-19-2008, 03:52 AM	#707
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	On the intellectual side of religion and spirituality we are still dwelling in the lingering shadows of medieval night, hypnotized and victimized by superstition of the weirdest types flaunted from pulpit and seminary. This beclouded day of gloom will continue as long as we have not the acumen to dissociate sublime myth, allegory, drama and symbol from the dregs of history. ___Alvin Boyd Kuhn_____ Those who lack discrimination may quote the letter of the Scripture, but they are really denying it's inner truth. ______The Bhagavada-Gita_____

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