FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-10-2012, 10:56 AM   #11
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ohio
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by anethema View Post
Has anyone here ever entertained the possibility that the entire question can be reduced to the approximation of dems vs reps in America? These are people who do not think like each other at all. Trump for example, confronted with absolutely emperical evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii refuses to accept it as valid. Noone in the "acedemia" is going to accept anything that contradicts their worldview. Spin is imo correct in the agnostic approach to this question but his quioxtic(sic) attempt to engage the other side is tantamount to Obama trying to get abill through Congress.
Most of the participants claim to be relying on standard scholarly methodology.

Comparing the other side to birthers is not helpful here.
Standard sholarly methodology has given us an Alexander who in my previous post is shown to believe he was a god, and had sex with his best friend. Both assertions backed up by "ancient documents", Arrian, Cassiodorus, Plutarch. This template the "acadamy" accepts as probably true, using the same methodology that is being used here. There are no eyewitness accouts, supphosedly there were but their lost(Q?). Scholarly methodology has been creating factual information about the past since Herodotus.
anethema is offline  
Old 06-10-2012, 11:38 AM   #12
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApostateAbe View Post
Ben Witherington has been interviewing Bart Ehrman, in a six-part (and counting) series published on the web. In the sixth part, Witherington asks Ehrman about mythicist's dependence on interpolations.
[Ben Witherington] Q. Mythicists seems to often uses the interpolation theory to explain away NT texts that are inconvenient to their agendas. Yet it is also true that some NT scholars use interpolation theories to the very same end, even when there is apparently no textual basis for the interpolation theory. Explain how the mythicists appeal to interpolation is special pleading, whereas it is not when some NT scholars resort to such a theory (take for example the case of 1 Cor. 14.33b-36, which is displaced in some manuscripts but to my knowledge there are no manuscripts that omit it altogether).

[Bart Ehrman] A. A theory of interpolation argues that there are passages in the New Testament that were not originally there, even though they are still found in all the surviving manuscripts. When a passage (whether several verses, a single verse, or part of a verse) is not found in one or more manuscripts, then the decision whether it was originally in the NT is based on textual criticism. Scholars have to decide then which manuscript(s) more likely presents the oldest form of the text. But when all the manuscripts agree, and one wants to claim that they are all wrong with respect to the oldest form of the text, that involves arguing that at a very, very early stage of the transmission of the text (when it was being copied), someone inserted a verse (or verses, or part of a verse) that came to be found in all our surviving manuscripts. That would be what we mean by an interpolation.

In my opinion, there is no reason, in theory, to deny that there could be interpolations in the New Testament – that is, places where all our manuscripts include a passage (a verse, part of a verse, several verses) that was not originally put there by the authors. This is especially the case in light of the fact that we don’t start getting relatively complete manuscripts of the New Testament until well over a century after the books of the NT were written. At the same time, I think that if someone thinks a passage was an interpolation, there needs to be very, very, very compelling reasons for thinking so.

In almost every instance in which scholars have suggested that there are interpolations, I think the evidence is not compelling. The one instance that I think is compelling is 1 Cor. 14:34-35. I don’t need to give the evidence here. But I find it completely convincing. I should say that whether the verses are original or interpolated does not matter much to me personally. And that’s precisely the problem with many instances of alleged interpolation: it often happens that the scholar who proposes an interpolation has a vested interest in the matter, because if the verses are in fact original, then his or her particular view of things/interpretation is more or less destroyed.

That happens to be the case with the mythicists, as I repeatedly show in my book. Whenever there is a passage that contradicts their views, they invariably claim that the passage is an interpolation. This is what I have called “interpretation by convenience.” If a passage contradicts your view, then the most convenient way to deal with it is by claiming that “originally” in fact it supported your view, but someone came along and changed it. And so, for example, some mythicists “take out” the references to Jesus in Paul, claiming they were not original. And on what grounds? Because Paul doesn’t mention Jesus! That, obviously, is circular reasoning. In any event, I cite a number of instances of this kind of proceeding Did Jesus Exist.

Here let me just say that every case of alleged interpolation needs to be considered carefully and on its own merits. In principle, none should be excluded. But to be accepted, there needs to be a LOT of compelling arguments.
"...if someone thinks a passage was an interpolation, there needs to be very, very, very compelling reasons for thinking so."

Do you agree or disagree with Ehrman?
Yes, he is right and further, interpolations –if proven to be true – would only signify something living and hence evolving or some trivial correction of some earlier copying error at its worst.
Iskander is offline  
Old 06-10-2012, 11:50 AM   #13
Moderator -
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posts: 4,639
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Carr View Post
EHRMAN
The one instance that I think is compelling is 1 Cor. 14:34-35.

CARR
And a lot of people find the case for 1 Thess 2 having interpolations is also compelling.

Bart doesn't think so.

But doesn't the passage contradict his view that the Romans killed Jesus?

Well, yes, but as he doesn't want to say it is an interpolation, he simply denies that it says that the Jews killed Jesus.

Apparently, you are allowed to deny the plain meaning of the words in the text, but if you follow a lot of perfectly orthodox scholars who are puzzled that Paul says the Jews killed Jesus, you are simply dishonest.
Ehrman says that it DOES say the the Jews killed Jesus. You are misrepresenting him. It also does not contradict his position (the orthodox scholarly position) that the Romans killed Jesus, because he does not say Paul is correct in scapegoating the Jews, only that he does it.

There is no reason to call that an interpolation, by the way, except that it is distasteful to many.
Diogenes the Cynic is offline  
Old 06-10-2012, 12:10 PM   #14
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anethema View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post

Most of the participants claim to be relying on standard scholarly methodology.

Comparing the other side to birthers is not helpful here.
Standard sholarly methodology has given us an Alexander who in my previous post is shown to believe he was a god, and had sex with his best friend. Both assertions backed up by "ancient documents", Arrian, Cassiodorus, Plutarch. This template the "acadamy" accepts as probably true, using the same methodology that is being used here. There are no eyewitness accouts, supphosedly there were but their lost(Q?). Scholarly methodology has been creating factual information about the past since Herodotus.
In the case of birthers, there is no methodology, only denial of plain facts. There are few comparable plain facts in ancient history, and none involving Jesus. That is why the comparison is just an insult, not a contribution to the discussion.

In ancient history, there is a probabilistic attempt to reconstruct facts, but it is possible to construct a number of explanations that have some possibility of being true.

The quality and quantity of evidence for Alexander, and the probability of the reconstructions of his life, are vastly different from the evidence for Jesus. There were identifiable eyewitness accounts of Alexander by his companions that were used as sources by later historians; there is nothing that can be credibly claimed to be an eyewitness account of Jesus by someone who knew him. There is no alternate explanation for Alexander and his world conquest than a historical Alexander; there are alternate explanations for Christian origins that involve either no historical Jesus or a variety of different possible historical Jesus's.
Toto is offline  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:00 PM   #15
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ohio
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by anethema View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post

Most of the participants claim to be relying on standard scholarly methodology.

Comparing the other side to birthers is not helpful here.
Standard sholarly methodology has given us an Alexander who in my previous post is shown to believe he was a god, and had sex with his best friend. Both assertions backed up by "ancient documents", Arrian, Cassiodorus, Plutarch. This template the "acadamy" accepts as probably true, using the same methodology that is being used here. There are no eyewitness accouts, supphosedly there were but their lost(Q?). Scholarly methodology has been creating factual information about the past since Herodotus.
In the case of birthers, there is no methodology, only denial of plain facts. There are few comparable plain facts in ancient history, and none involving Jesus. That is why the comparison is just an insult, not a contribution to the discussion.

In ancient history, there is a probabilistic attempt to reconstruct facts, but it is possible to construct a number of explanations that have some possibility of being true.

The quality and quantity of evidence for Alexander, and the probability of the reconstructions of his life, are vastly different from the evidence for Jesus. There were identifiable eyewitness accounts of Alexander by his companions that were used as sources by later historians; there is nothing that can be credibly claimed to be an eyewitness account of Jesus by someone who knew him. There is no alternate explanation for Alexander and his world conquest than a historical Alexander; there are alternate explanations for Christian origins that involve either no historical Jesus or a variety of different possible historical Jesus's.
OMG there are identifiable eyewitnesses to Alexander but they are sources for later historians? Sounds to me like Ehrman's Aramaic sources. Ptolemy knew Alexander, I can state that emperically, did Cephus know Jesus christ? Boy thats a whole different can of worms.
anethema is offline  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:06 PM   #16
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Valdebernardo
Posts: 73
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Carr View Post
Let us hope that Ehrman is not in the same room at the same time as a mythicist and an inerrantist, or else he might forget what to say to whom.

"A mythicist, a historicist and an inerrantist go into a pub..."
How did the joke continue?
Gorit Maqueda is offline  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:07 PM   #17
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anethema View Post
...

OMG there are identifiable eyewitnesses to Alexander but they are sources for later historians? Sounds to me like Ehrman's Aramaic sources.
What Aramaic sources? These are hypothetical at best, and we don't have a name of anyone who wrote an eyewitness account.

Quote:
Ptolemy knew Alexander, I can state that emperically, did Cephus know Jesus christ? Boy thats a whole different can of worms.
Do we have any indication from Cephas that he knew a historical Jesus? I don't think so. We don't even know if the Cephas in Paul's letters is the same person as Peter.
Toto is offline  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:18 PM   #18
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
Posts: 5,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Carr View Post
EHRMAN
The one instance that I think is compelling is 1 Cor. 14:34-35.

CARR
And a lot of people find the case for 1 Thess 2 having interpolations is also compelling.

Bart doesn't think so.

But doesn't the passage contradict his view that the Romans killed Jesus?

Well, yes, but as he doesn't want to say it is an interpolation, he simply denies that it says that the Jews killed Jesus.

Apparently, you are allowed to deny the plain meaning of the words in the text, but if you follow a lot of perfectly orthodox scholars who are puzzled that Paul says the Jews killed Jesus, you are simply dishonest.
Ehrman says that it DOES say the the Jews killed Jesus. You are misrepresenting him. It also does not contradict his position (the orthodox scholarly position) that the Romans killed Jesus, because he does not say Paul is correct in scapegoating the Jews, only that he does it.

There is no reason to call that an interpolation, by the way, except that it is distasteful to many.
Where does Ehrman say that it does say the Jews killed Jesus? I notice you never rubbed my face in an Ehrman quote saying 'the Jews killed Jesus.' Telling that you didn't do that.....

As far as I know, Ehrman says the Jews were 'ultimately responsible' for killing Jesus, which is not the same thing at all(as you well know, hence your lack of quotes to back up your expostulations). (page 124, of Did Jesus Exist?')

Ehrman says Paul claimed Jesus was killed 'at the instigation' of the Jews.

Not the same thing at all, as you well know.

Of course, on page 258, Ehrman says the 'forces of evil' may have 'ultimately engineered his death.'

Hey, why choose whether it was Jews or demons who were ultimately responsible for the death of Jesus when you can have both in the same book?


So I was not misrepresenting Ehrman at all, who reads a passage saying 'the Jews killed Jesus' and changes it to 'ultimately responsible' and 'at the instigation of'.

But you know all this already. Hence your determination to deny it.
Steven Carr is offline  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:26 PM   #19
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,808
Default

Quote:
"...if someone thinks a passage was an interpolation, there needs to be very, very, very compelling reasons for thinking so."

I wonder why the double standard? One sees this a lot in Egyptology. A statue of Khafre is found 100 years ago buried in a hole near the Second Pyramid so that proves that Khafre built it. And, if you want to disprove that "fact" you had better come up with plans, blueprints, and rosters of the work force in order for the Egyptology Club to accept it. How far would Ehrman get if he applied his standard equally to his position?
Minimalist is offline  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:35 PM   #20
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ohio
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by anethema View Post
...

OMG there are identifiable eyewitnesses to Alexander but they are sources for later historians? Sounds to me like Ehrman's Aramaic sources.
What Aramaic sources? These are hypothetical at best, and we don't have a name of anyone who wrote an eyewitness account.

Quote:
Ptolemy knew Alexander, I can state that emperically, did Cephus know Jesus christ? Boy thats a whole different can of worms.
Do we have any indication from Cephas that he knew a historical Jesus? I don't think so. We don't even know if the Cephas in Paul's letters is the same person as Peter.
I really think we agree. But my argument goes to the quality of the evidence. I will accept Appian over Luke, as a historian. That doesnt mean either are correct. They both claim to be writing history. But as you say look at what they use for sources. IMO the sources for the origens for the Christian faith are anthropological (Rodney Stark), and not emperical. Look for it in Eusebius. The whole "idea" didnt matter to anyone (majority of a 60 million empire), until it became something like an hegemony as Spin puts it.
anethema is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:09 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.