Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 02-09-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reena

Actually they say that abortion is always wrong, but in the past they did not know biology as well and it was common understanding of the day that fetus became human at "quickening."

So they say their past stance was the result of a lack of knowledge of development and the fact that they didn't think it was human until quickening.

They sure wiggle well

Quickening is the first evidence of our human nature. Until then the fetus is not human and therefore is it not redeemable (it obviously does not require redemption). Notice that our human nature is our second nature which now means that abortion is not against our human condition but against our man-in-the-image-of-God identity. Hence abortion is wrong after the moment of conception.

Berthold · 02-09-2006, 11:56 AM

Prosecution of witches was official church policy.

Iskander · 02-09-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Limbo is just a fact much the same as resurrection is a fact. I would be no problem to make it Dogma because all it means is that non-Catholics do not benefit from our communion with the saints and fellowship of believers.

It is a little more than that
http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html

Chili · 02-09-2006, 06:16 PM

Let's just identify Limbo for what it is and that should tell you enough. Limbo is living life along the path chosen by our "lymbic system" and this would be without the fellowship of believers and without any communion with the saints in heaven whereopon the entire Catholic tradition is based. IOW, only Catholics are Catholic.

Reena · 02-09-2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quickening is the first evidence of our human nature. Until then the fetus is not human and therefore is it not redeemable (it obviously does not require redemption). Notice that our human nature is our second nature which now means that abortion is not against our human condition but against our man-in-the-image-of-God identity. Hence abortion is wrong after the moment of conception.

Are you saying that the Church doesn't think the fetus is human until the quickening but still says abortion is murder? Hmm!!!

Imnotspecial · 02-09-2006, 09:29 PM

They have pretty well changed their position on the death penalty. While they have not explicitly said that the death penalty is wrong, they say now that if there are other means to deal with an offender, then one should not exercise the death penalty. The American bishops are unanimously opposing the death penalty now. This is a real change in teaching morals.

Furthermore, they used to think it was beneficial for the soul of a heretic to be burned at the stake. They no longer believe this.

Jehanne · 02-10-2006, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunter

They have pretty well changed their position on the death penalty. While they have not explicitly said that the death penalty is wrong, they say now that if there are other means to deal with an offender, then one should not exercise the death penalty. The American bishops are unanimously opposing the death penalty now. This is a real change in teaching morals.

Furthermore, they used to think it was beneficial for the soul of a heretic to be burned at the stake. They no longer believe this.

It's good to have the resources of the Catholic Church on this one! As an opponent of the death penalty, it is good to see more conservative Christians coming to oppose it. As for heretics, burning offered many benefits -- if the individual escaped Hell, the time spent suffering at the stake would shorten the time that one would suffer in Purgatory. It’s a win-win solution!!

Chili · 02-10-2006, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reena

Are you saying that the Church doesn't think the fetus is human until the quickening but still says abortion is murder? Hmm!!!

Yes, our human condition is the illusion wherein we think we are but wherein we really have no 'existence of being' as 'being' because it is conditional upon our 'thinking' as in "I think therefore I am." Because of this void it demands a 'self worth' whereupon 'personality' is created that becomes known as our 'persona' or 'mask' that we carry around as pretender.

So yes, if the awakening of our 'persona' is the first evidence of our persona we really are defending the right to have an abortion on the wrong identity. In fact, this persona is the very identity that later must be crucified to set the God-man free . . . but not until it has served its purpose as hunter gatherer for man-in-the-image-of-God.

Chili · 02-10-2006, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunter

Furthermore, they used to think it was beneficial for the soul of a heretic to be burned at the stake. They no longer believe this.

The Reformation ended that right. Before the Reformation freedom of religion was not a civil right but freedom from religion was.

It always was the desire of the heretic to be burned at the stake and that is what the Inquisition was all about.

Chili · 02-10-2006, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

As for heretics, burning offered many benefits -- if the individual escaped Hell, the time spent suffering at the stake would shorten the time that one would suffer in Purgatory. It’s a win-win solution!!

The stake ended 'purgation-without-end' and was the beginning of new life in the mind of the heretic.

Purgation is to last 40 months instead of 40 years and becomes hell on earth beyond 40 months if there is no end in sight until death brings it to an end. This argument is based on Rev.13 (and 14) in the difference between the first and second beast.

So yes, it is a win-win or even a win-win-win if such heretics were fed to the storks.

02-09-2006, 11:56 AM	#22
Berthold Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Vienna, AUSTRIA Posts: 6,147	This surely has been discussed before, but... Prosecution of witches was official church policy.

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02-09-2006, 06:16 PM	#24
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Let's just identify Limbo for what it is and that should tell you enough. Limbo is living life along the path chosen by our "lymbic system" and this would be without the fellowship of believers and without any communion with the saints in heaven whereopon the entire Catholic tradition is based. IOW, only Catholics are Catholic.

02-09-2006, 09:29 PM	#26
Imnotspecial Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North of South Posts: 5,389	They have pretty well changed their position on the death penalty. While they have not explicitly said that the death penalty is wrong, they say now that if there are other means to deal with an offender, then one should not exercise the death penalty. The American bishops are unanimously opposing the death penalty now. This is a real change in teaching morals. Furthermore, they used to think it was beneficial for the soul of a heretic to be burned at the stake. They no longer believe this.

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