Huon

1 Cor 15 :
8 And last of all, he was seen also by me (Paul), as by one born out of due time.

Paul also had visions, or the writer of 1 Cor says so, and sets this vision in the same perspective as the "testimony of the 500 fishermen".

Peter Kirby

That's physically impossible, of course.

But the idea of thousands of people "sharing a hallucination" is weirder than ESP or efficacious prayer or what-have-you. I wouldn't casually assume it, that's for sure.

The least improbable here is some kind of optical effect that was visible in Portugal and that was exaggerated by expectation, in my opinion.

best,
Peter Kirby

exile

Some people on the beach saw nothing. Staring at the sun might
cause some strange optical illusions but I don;t think anyone would care to try it.

And of course the whole Fatima miracle thing was extremely political. Mary seems to have intervened to help topple the anti-clerical government. Pity she didn't do the same to Hitler or Stalin.

Lógos Sokratikós

I don't agree. You'll have to explain the report in "O Século". It could be fraud (the guy could have gotten paid by the Church or he could have been a covert believer). But still it's not proven. The burden of proof is on those who want us to believe, but still, I haven't found one really satisfactory argument that would explain it in a non-miraculous fashion.

And, now that I mentioned the burden of proof, I don't think it's that very burdensome, because they have offered some proof. What else do we need? You could come up with interesting tests, but this happened long ago, and as for the proof they could come up with, I believe this is good, maybe not excellent, but good.

What it seems to me is that there is some evidence that something could have happened there. I don't think it is enough to make me do the apparition's bidding, nor accept Catholic theology (been there, done it, don't think I'd like going back).

On the other hand, it seems it hasn't been evidence enough for other Christians to convert to Catholicism, and that's interesting. And most Catholics don't follow the apparition's commands, though most Catholics I've personally asked believe in the apparition + miracles... But still... how to dismiss all they have offered to make us believe? :huh:

Lógos Sokratikós

Optical illusions and mass hallucinations are weak arguments...

Optical thesis: Too many witnesses, at too many different angles.
Hallucination thesis: What could have caused all of them to have the exactly same hallucination? Not even good entertainment hypnotists are that good.

T.O.M
Ad hoc Advocatus Diaboli (Sorry guys!)

Sparrow

Thousands have supposedly seen the Virgin Mary in Conyers, GA. See this . On the 13th of every month, Mary would appear on this farm east of Atlanta and bring a message to the world. Thousands would show up to attend. I suppose you could get 500 of them to swear they saw Mary. What I don't know is how they knew what she looked like?

Lógos Sokratikós

Probable explanation: Just as she (she, it, whatever) knew that if she/it would appear in Conyers, she'd have to speak English to establish effective communication, for the same reason, Catholics pictorically refer to Italian paintings, therefore, she'd appear that way so she'd be recognized. (I guess).

T.O.M
Ad hoc Advocatus Diaboli (What's with me today? Am I sick?)

Lógos Sokratikós

Probable explanation: Open-mindedness is returning to TheOpenMind (I guess).

(Crap! There I go again!)
:rolling:

Lógos Sokratikós

Qué mierda! Somebody must have popped something into my drink last night at the club!
:rolling:

lpetrich

That can and does happen, as Joe Nickell notes, and Philip Plait does also in Bad Astronomy. PP's messageboard even has a thread on that subject, Solar viewing: of all the stupid things... The "dancing Sun" and "colored Sun" effects are side effects of the Sun's brightness; because of shared human eye physiology, all those 70,000 people that had good vision could easily have seen those effects.

Yes, one has to wonder what lazy bums deities sometimes are. One would expect the Virgin Mary to be outraged at Protestants' and Communists' disrespect for her, but she has yet to put her foot down on either. Imagine her appearing before Jack Chick, and asking him, "Jack, Jack, why are you persecuting me?"

(Acts 9:4)