Joan of Bark

Well, it's true I don't like the "all or nothing" part of Jesus' teachings in the passage in question. But if I am not confused, why are apologists always tell me I'm misinterpreting the passage?

rhutchin

Don't know. What is your interpretation of the passage?

lpetrich

I once started a thread on this very subject, Why Ten-Commandments Fetishism? Why Not the Sermon on the Mount?.

Here's a slight rewrite of a list that I had made earlier, working from the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7:

1. Do not hide your true self; let it come through and enlighten everybody
2. Follow all the Laws of Moses; they all still apply
3. Do not get angry with anyone; that is as bad as murder
4. Do not call people insulting names
5. Settle disputes as quickly as you can
6. Do not look at people with lust; that is a form of adultery
7. Remove parts of your body that make you commit sins
8. Divorce makes you guilty of adultery, except if done for unfaithfulness
9. Do not swear oaths by anything; just say "Yes" or "No"
10. Love your enemies and care for them; do not hate them
11. Let your enemies continue to attack you and exploit you
12. Do not advertise your piety to others in an effort to seem virtuous to other people
13. Use simple, straightforward language in your devotions, and not impressive-sounding nonsense
14. Accumulate heavenly treasures, like piety and virtue, and not earthly ones, because the latter are vulnerable and can easily be lost or destroyed
15. Do not try to serve both God and money; you cannot serve two masters at the same time
16. Do not concern yourself with your future, because God will do a much better job of taking care of you, just as he takes care of the birds and the wildflowers
17. Do not judge others, because you will be judged in the same way
18. Do not complain about a speck in someone else's eye when you have a log in your eye
19. Do not give anything holy to anyone unworthy; it is like throwing pearls to pigs
20. Ask, and you shall receive; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you
21. Do to others what you would want them to do to you
22. Even when it is awkward and troublesome for you to be virtuous, be virtuous
23. Watch out for false prophets, who are like wolves in sheep's clothing; you can recognize them by their actions
24. Do not expect to make it into the Kingdom of Heaven by bragging about what good things you have done

And here is a list that I've made from the rest of Matthew:
(4:1-7) Don't expect God to reveal himself to you
(8:18-20) Don't expect to have a home
(8:21-22) Be willing to desert your parents, even when they die
(10:5-7) About the coming Kingdom of Heaven, spread the message only among fellow Jews; ignore the Samaritans and Gentiles
(10:8-14) Live off of the local population and cure people; ignore those who will not listen to you
(10:17-20) If you get in trouble, don't worry about what to say; God will know what to make you say
(10:32-33) Acknowledge JC, and he will acknowledge you; disown him, and he will disown you
(10:34-37) Break up your family, because you ought to love JC more than your family members
(12:1-14) It's OK to work on the Sabbath if you really need to, like collecting food to eat and curing disease
(12:31-32) Do not ever expect to be forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit
(12:46-50) Treat your fellow believers as your real family, more important than your biological or marital family
(13:1-52) Put a lot of effort into getting into the Kingdom of Heaven, it is like a super valuable pearl, etc. etc. etc. -- JC repeats this message in several parables elsewhere
(15:10-11) Don't concern yourself with what you eat as much as with what your say
(16:4) If you are wicked, don't expect any divine sign other than divine disapproval
(16:5-12) Beware of the teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees
(16:27-28) Expect Jesus Christ to make his Second Coming in your lifetime
(17:20-21) Have lots of faith, and you can move mountains in a very literal sense, by telling them to move
(18:1-6) To be worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven, you must be like a little child
(18:7-8) Repeat of how you must remove body parts that make you commit sins
(18:7-15) Try to resolve differences between you and your friends and family
(19:3-9) Divorce is a no-no, except for unfaithfulness, and remarrying makes you guilty of adultery
(19:10-12) Consider neutering yourself for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven
(19:14) Repeat of be like little children in order to get into the Kingdom of Heaven
(19:16-24) Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor, because a rich person can no more enter the Kingdom of Heaven than a camel or a thick rope can pass through the eye of a needle
(21:12-13) Don't be afraid to throw a temple tantrum in a house of worship ruled by moneygrubbing pious frauds
(21:18-22) Pray for something, and you will get it, just like JC's zapping of a certain fig tree
(22:15-22) Pay your taxes; give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's
(22:23-32) Don't expect your marriages and relationships to continue into the Kingdom of Heaven
(22:37) Love God with every possible bit of effort
(22:39) Love your neighbor as yourself
(23:9) Treat only God as your real father
(23:10) Treat only JC as your real teacher
(25:31-46) Help those who are down and out

I haven't bothered searching the other Gospels for moral teachings, however.

Joan of Bark

That Jesus does not (at the very least) want us to love our family.

Sheshbazzar

Thanks for the list lpetrich
A little rearranging and we get this message


(19:16-24) Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor,
( because a rich person can no more enter the Kingdom of Heaven than a camel or a thick rope can pass through the eye of a needle)

14 Accumulate heavenly treasures, like piety and virtue, and not earthly ones, because the latter are vulnerable and can easily be lost or destroyed

15 Do not try to serve both God and money; you cannot serve two masters at the same time

16 Do not concern yourself with your future, because God will do a much better job of taking care of you, just as he takes care of the birds and the wildflowers
So, obeying these (and a lot of others) now you have became a devout follower, the problems of learning how to manage finances, and accumulate savings has been effectively disposed of. (more further on)

For perspective, in practical application I'll add this
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Acts 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35. And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

37. Having land, sold [it], and brought the money, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2. And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles' feet.
3. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
4. Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
in other words, remaining within the cult required them forking over 100%, -everything-

5. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him].
7. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.
11. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
understandably

Now returning to the list;

(10:8-14) Live off of the local population and cure people; ignore those who will not listen to you
As an obedient and practicing follower, you have reduced yourself to financial poverty, and turned all of your assets over to the church. You have voluntarily made yourself into a SLAVE, one -owned- but -owning nothing- except promises and platitudes.
You will not have much choice, the church will have complete control of your life.

(22:15-22) Pay your taxes; give to Caesar what is Caesar's -and to God what is God's
As long as you are able, the church will expect you continue to work and to earn. ("we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat").
( 2 Th 3:10)
(The church owns ALL, is in total control of ALL, even to the cutting off your food.- you are a SLAVE)
Thus, as a Church member, you WILL continue to work, and to pay the taxes on your earnings to "Caesar",
ALL of the rest of your earnings (you are a SLAVE) -belong to God- so you must Give them to God, Give ALL of your remaining earnings, after you have paid your taxes to Caesar, unto The Church.
Pay Caesar, and then pay The Church- You are God's SLAVE, your "earnings" from your labor, ALL of them, are His; You are a SLAVE, you own nothing,
everything a SLAVE "owns" -is- the PROPERTY of his master, even your coat and your shoes are His, which he in His mercy, has allowed you, His SLAVE to wear.


(25:31-46) Help those who are down and out
Your help will consist of handing out religious platitudes and promises, pretending to "heal" them of their "sicknesses" with words.
If they need food, clothing, or shelter, You can't help them because you have nothing left
(because "in this world" you have made yourself flat-ass broke- you are only a poor (really poor) "servant" (slave) of the Lord.)
You can appeal to The Church elders to assist, maybe they will, maybe they won't. If they do, strings (no, make that CHAINS and FETTERS) will be attached.
but that won't bother you much at all because you will have "saved" another soul for Jesus, and helped your God obtain another SLAVE.

GakuseiDon

Visit people in prisons? Matt 25

rhutchin

I think that would be the wrong understanding. One could certainly love their family and yet have that love seem as hatred compared to their love for Christ. The love hate relationship would be exacerbated where the family had no love for Christ and any love for Christ by one member of the family would be seen as hatred of the other members of the family.

I think the issue is how love for Christ would play out such that it would be seen as hatred for one's family (especially by the members of the family).

Seitsuman

I think this refers to a kind of detachment that can be found in Buddhism as well. Do not let things of this world overwhelm you. Family affiliation and prestige would be very important at the time. In many ways they would dictate your actions far more than you would. You might well inherit feuds, occupation, marry to order. I take it as meaning to look deeper into the spirituality within for freedom of conscience instead of living as no more than a function of your family.

There is another more literal possibility that might relate to a real Jesus. The End of Days is upon us, God is going to overthrow the existing order and establish His Kingdom. Don't waste time on mundane matters now.

I think there are two quite different interpretations to most things. The original may well be intended literally. But then the Jewish Uprising happened, God was expected to smite the Kittim - and it all went belly-up and the particular generals responsible for the failure became Roman Emperors - it's hard to imagine a worse disappointment. Thereafter everything would have to be re-evaluated if it was to mean anything at all.

Sheshbazzar

Whitewash hogwash
Yeah, and I've been there, and have seen first-hand what extreme "Christ" comes first love" can do to families.
Stupid assholes who can't hold a job or support their wife and children because they think they "Got a calling from Jeesus" and "the Lord's work comes first"
line of bull-shit.
And buy into that "give everything away to the poor, and follow me" and "take no thought for tomorrow" -"forsake houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, wife, children, and lands, for my name's sake", "JESUS FIRST", bible thumping line of crap and use it as an excuse to run their famly into the dirt, to follow a god dammed made-up lunatic imaginary preacher.

"Jee'sus" dosen't solicit half-hearted followers, no, he COMMANDS that his disciples HATE their family members to follow him.-and abandon them and follow him
(Matt 19:29, Lu 18:29) "Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead" (Matt 8:22, Lu 9:60-62)
Why? so they can get themselves (fuck the family) a piece of that "pie-in-the-sky", what a self-serving, greedy fucking philosophy.
Take care of what 'ol Jee'zuz's wants first, and this will fix you up fine, get you all the goodies; and to hell with everyone else who is not a member of the Jeezuz cult.
Damn! just how frigging stupid can men be?

rhutchin

Your comments and experiences tell us the opposite; that you have never been there.