Sheshbazzar

And your skills in the reading of ancient Aramaic, and in positively identifying material translated from ancient Aramaic consist of what Adam???
Simply parroting such crap as you have heard from others?

Stanley E. Porter of the UNIVERSITY OF SURREY ROEHAMPTON, U.K. in his "Jesus and the Use of Greek: A Response to Maurice Casey" exposes flaws in Casey's claims (along with his employment of somewhat underhanded and unsavory tactics.)
You cannot play with shit Adam, without getting it on your hands.

Yes, it is time for you to adopt a new paradigm; One that is not constructed out of loads of horse shit held together with straw.


.

Adam

Thanks for the link. Porter's article instead undermines Solo's case that the Greek pun in John 3 proves that John is not authentic--Jesus did know and use Greek. The article is not about Casey's case for Aramaic sources in the gospels, but against Casey's belief that Greek was not significant in Jesus's milieu. Porter just defends himself against what he regards as Casey's misrepresentation. Porter as a Greek scholar denies Casey's cynicism about Greek and Aramaic scholars just defending their own bailiwicks, but by so doing he thereby exhibits himself as a sample of exactly that.

Adam

Sorry, Shesh,
But I responded too cavalierly in my Post #33 response to your #32. I of course do believe that my q1 in Luke and qT in Mark were part of an early gospel that existed in reality. This is not standard scholarship, which is part of why I don't present the two simply as excerpts from Luke. Were I to apply some theory further, I would have to present qT as an integral part of Proto-Luke as well. I prefer to leave Proto-Luke basically as defined during the first half of the 20th Century. An expanded Proto-Luke would leave it unsuitable for my GattA (Gospel according to the Atheists, in spite of what some wags here have suggested, creating exactly the confusion I told Toto would result from changing the name he found offensive). Nor do I know whether q2 was included within Proto-Luke or was added later, so I don't really know a better listing of its verses.

So yes, qT and q1 probably were used together in the early decades of Christianity, read conjointly with and a preface to the Passion Narrative that already existed (and that explains why Q has nothing about the arrest, trial, crucifixion, or resurrection of Jesus, because that had already been written).

Adam

Yes, I now envision a chart or table to present gospel sources, and I have studied this one from maryhelena:
http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....ght=maryhelena
It's not apparent to me whether this came from Word, Excel, online, or creation here on FRDB. I know that my Word formatting does not carry over on clipboard to here. I have no online authority to copy to here. Formatting on FRDB seems very difficult. So it's Excel? Format my chart on Excel, and I can transfer it here? Please advise.

Toto

That link doesn't go anywhere except this thread.

There is a table function in Vbulletin - check out
http://www.freeratio.org/misc.php?do=bbcode#T2

The code can get complex. If you reply to maryhelena's post, you can see how she did the table.

Adam

Thanks, Toto. I had corrected the link, but after you looked.
Yes, I did study the notations that come up from clicking on "Quote". Even assuming that's feasible for a beginner, there's the risk of doing all that work and it getting lost when the website hits a temporary bump. (Or lost of course if I can't can't get it to post.) But I'll study your link.

Edited to add:
The Vbulletin shows a vertical line as the column break. I don't see that keystroke on my keypad. And what about the "-" always preceding it on maryhelena's table?

Toto

The vertical line is called a pipe. It probably is on your key pad to the right of the brackets - but it looks like it has a break in the middle.

What keyboard are you using?

The dash is not part of the code - you can see it in the finished post.

Adam

Agreed. It's a capitalization of the backslash. Thank you.

Adam

[Concluding from Post #37. Anything from Mark is qT (Twelve-Source), from Luke is q1, and from John is the Discourses I regard as written by Nicodemus.]

John 17:
G 1 These things Jesus spoke, and G having lifted up his eyes to heaven, he said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son in order that the Son may glorify you. 2 Even as you gave to him authority over all flesh, in order that everything which you have given to him, he may give to them life eternal…. 4 I glorified you on earth, having completed the work which you had given to me in order that I should do.
E 5 And now glorify me, Father, with yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was. 6 I manifested your name to the men whom you gave to me from the world. Yours they were and to me you have them, and your word they have kept. 7 Now they know that all things whatsoever you have given to me are from you, 8 because the words which you gave to me, I have given to them, and they themselves received, and they know truly that from you I came forth, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I ask for them; not for the world I ask, but for those whom you have given to me, because they are mine, and I have been glorified by them. 11 And no longer I am in the world, and they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name which you have given to me, in order that they may be one even as (are). 12 When I was with them, I kept them in your name and guarded (them), and no one of them is lost….. 13 And now I am coming to you and G I speak these things in the world in order that they may have my joy filled in themselves. 14 I have given to them your word, and the world hated them because they are not from the world even as I am not from the world. E 15 I do not ask that you take them from the world but (that) you keep them from evil. 16 From the world they are not, even as I am not from the world.

G 17 Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth. E 18 Even as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. G 19 And in behalf of them I sanctify myself, in order that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. E 20 And not about these only do I ask, but also about the ones believing on me through their word, 21 in order that all may be one, G Even as you, Father, (are) in me and I in you, in order that they themselves also may be in us, E in order that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And the glory which you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one even as we (are) one, G 23 I in them and you in me, in order that they may be completed into one, E in order that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

G 24 Father, what you have given to me, I wish that where I am, those also may be with me, in order that they may see my glory which you have given to me E because you loved me G before the foundation of the world. Righteous Father, even the world did not know you, but I knew you. E And these knew that you sent me. 26 And I made know to them, and will make known, your name, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[I have presented John through John 17 above (mostly Teeple’s G and E) as all from one eyewitness (Nicodemus) and below(mostly Teeple’s S and G) give John Mark as the author of much of the remaining chapters. However, there is some overlap which is simplest to insert here as a short excursus, the preliminaries to the Passion Narrative by John Mark:]

John 11:54 S Then Jesus no longer walked openly among the Jews, but he went away from there to the region near the wilderness.
John 12:1 S Then Jesus six days before the Passover came into Bethany…. 2 Then [we] made a supper for him there….3 Then Mary, having taken a litra of pure, costly nard ointment, anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the aroma of the ointment. 4 And says one of his disciples….5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?”….7 Then Jesus said, “Permit her, in order that she may keep it for the day of my burial. 8 For the poor you always have with you, but me you do not always have.” 9 Then a large crowd of the Jews…were going and were believing on Jesus.
12 On the morrow a great crowd…having heard that Jesus is coming into Jerusalem, 13 took branches of palms and went out to meet him, and cried out, “Hosanna. Blessed be the one coming in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel.” 14 And Jesus, having found a little donkey, sat upon it.
John 13:1 R And before the feast of the Passover, Jesus, seeing that his hour had come that he should pass from this world says 18 {But look, here with me on the table is the hand of the man who is betraying me.} (Substituting from Luke 22:21)} 37 E Peter says to him…I will lay down my life for you.” 38 Jesus answers, ”Will you lay down your life for me? ...the cock will not crow until you deny me thrice.”!
[John 18 and 19 as from John Mark, continuing from the above short excursus]

John 18:
S 1 …He went …where there was a garden, into which he himself entered and his disciples. ….3 Then Judas taking a cohort and servants from the chief priests and Pharisees, comes there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. 4… He says to them,” Whom do you seek?” 5 They answered him, “Jesus the Nazoraean.” He says to them, “I am (he).” …6 Then when he said to them, “I am,” they drew back and fell to the ground. 10… (One) having a sword, drew it and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear….12 Then the cohort and the tribune…seized Jesus and bound him. 13 And they led (him) to… Caiaphas, who was the high priest of that year.
G 15 And following Jesus was another disciple E and that disciple was known to the high priest he entered with Jesus into the court of the high priest, 16 but Peter stood outside at the door. Then went out the other disciple, E the one known by the high priest, G and he talked to the doorkeeper, and she led in Peter. “Are you not also of the disciples of this man?” That one says, “I am not.” 18 And the slaves and the servants had stood, having made a charcoal fire because it was cold, and were warming (themselves). And Peter was also with them standing and warming (himself). S 19 Then the high priest asked Jesus about his disciples and about his teaching…. 22 And when he said these things, one of the servants standing by gave a slap to Jesus, saying, “Thus do you answer the high priest?”….

25…Then they said to him, “Are you not also of his disciples?” That one denied and said, “I am not.” 26 Says one of the slaves of the high priest,… G “Did I not see you in the garden with him?” 27 Then again Peter denied, and immediately a cock crowed. 28 Then they lead Jesus from Caiaphas into the praetorium. And it was early. And they themselves did not enter into the praetorium, in order that they might not be defied but might eat the Passover. 29 Then Pilate went outside to them and says, “What accusation do you bear against this man?

G 31 Then Pilate said to them, “You take him and according to your law judge (him).” The Jews said to him, “It is not lawful for us to kill anyone.”….33 Then Pilate entered again into the praetorium and called Jesus and said to him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” 34 Jesus answered, “Do you say this from yourself, or did others tell you about me?” 35 Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your nation and the chief priests delivered to me. What did you do?” Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom was from this world, my servants would fight in order that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now my kingdom is not from here.” 37 Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say (rightly) that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, in order that I may testify to the truth. Everyone who is from the truth hears my voice.” 38 Pilate says to him, “What is truth?”

John 19:
S 1 Then Pilate took Jesus and scourged (him) 2 and the soldiers having woven a crown of thorns, places it on (his) head, and put on him a purple robe. 3 And they were coming to him and were saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” and they gave to him blows. 4 Pilate says to them, “You take him and crucify (him), for I do not find guilt in him.” 5 Then Jesus came outside, wearing the thorny crown and the purple robe….
G 9 And he entered the praetorium…and says to Jesus, “Whence are you?” But Jesus have no answer to him. 10 Pilate says to him, “
You are not speaking to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” 11 Answered him Jesus, “You would not have any authority over me unless it had been given to you from above. “….

S 12 Upon this Pilate was seeking to release him. But the Jews cried out saying, “If you release this one, you are not a friend of Caesar. Everyone making himself a king opposes Caesar.” 13 Then Pilate, having heard these words, led Jesus outside and sat on the judgment seat in the place called “Stone Pavement”….14…The hour was about the sixth. And he says to the Jews, “Behold your king! 15 Then those cried out, “Take (him) away! Crucify him! Pilate says to them, “Shall I crucify your king?” The chief priests answered, “We do not have a king except Caesar.” 16 Then he delivered him to them in order that he might be crucified. 17 Then they took Jesus and bearing his own cross, he went out into the place called “Skull”,…18 where they crucified him, and with him two others, one on each side and Jesus in the middle. 19 And Pilate wrote also a title and put (it) on the cross. And it was having been written, “Jesus the Nazoraean, the king of the Jews.”….

21 Then the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, “Write not ‘the king of the Jews’, but that that one said, “I am the king of the Jews.” 22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.” 23Then the soldiers, when they crucified Jesus, took his garments and made four parts, a part of each soldier, and (they took his) tunic. But the tunic was seamless, woven from the top through the whole (tunic). 24 Then they said to each other, “Let us not split it, but choose about it by lot whose it shall be.” ….25…And stood beside the cross of Jesus his mother, and the sister of his mother, Mary the (wife) of Clopas and Mary the Magdalene….
28 After this Jesus, knowing that already all things had been completed,…says, “I thirst.” 29 A vessel full of vinegar was sitting there; then having put on hyssop a sponge full of vinegar, they held (it) to his mouth. 30 Then when he was receiving he vinegar, he said, “It is completed”; and having bowed his head, he gave up (his) spirit….

38..Joseph from Arimathea…asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus.... 40 Then they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with spices, even as it is the custom with Jews to bury. 41 And in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb…42 Then there...because the tomb was near, they laid Jesus.

[From my own “Resurrection Sources” in Noesis #181 Jun e 2006 pg. 21. New Jerusalem Bible.]
{Petrine} Ur-Marcus[ by John Mark]
Mk 16:2 And very early in the morning on the first day of the week, they went to the tomb. . . .
Lk 24:2 They found that the stone had been rolled away from the tomb,
Lk 24:3 but on entering they could not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Lk 24:9 And they returned from the tomb and told all this to [us] the Eleven and to all the others.
Jn 20:2bc “They have taken the Lord from the tomb, and we do not know where they laid him.”
Lk 24:11b But this story of theirs seemed pure nonsense, and they did not believe them.
Jn 20:3 Then [we] Peter went forth and came running to the tomb.
Jn 20:4 And the two were running together. And [I] the other disciple ran faster than Peter and came first to the tomb.
Jn 20:5 And having stooped down, [I] he sees lying there the linen shroud, nevertheless [I] he did not go in.
Lk 24:12b Peter bent down and looked in and saw the linen cloths.
Jn 20:7 and the napkin which was on his head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.
Jn 20:8 Then [I] the other disciple went in and saw and believed.
Lk 24:12c [We] He then went back home, amazed at what had happened.
Jn 20:11b Then when Mary was weeping, she peered into the tomb.
Jn 20:12 And she sees two angels in white sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
Jn 20:13 And those say to her, “Why do you weep?” She says to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.”
Jn 20:14 Having said these things, she turned back and sees Jesus standing.
Jn 20:16-17 Jesus says to her, “Mary”. Having turned, that one says to him, “Rabbouni”, which means “Teacher”. Jesus says to her, “Touch me not, for not yet have I ascended to the Father, but go to my brethren and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father.’”
Jn 20:19a Then when it was it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors had been closed on account of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.”
Jn 20:20 And having said this, he showed hands and side to them. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord.
Lk 24:42-43 “Have you anything here to eat?” And they offered him a piece of grilled fish, which he took and ate before their eyes.
Jn 20:21c “Even as the Father sent me, I also send you.”
Jn 20:22 And having said this, he breathed on them and says to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Jn 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven to them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Jn 20:26 And after eight days his disciples were inside, and Jesus came when the doors had been closed and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be to you.”
Jn 20:27 Next he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and put your hand here . . .”
Lk 24:44 Then he told them, “This is what I meant when I said, while I was still with you, that everything written about me, in the law of Moses, in the Prophets and in the Psalms, was destined to be fulfilled.”
[To this point I have largely followed Howard Teeple in The Literary Origin of the Gospel of John for my derivation of Ur-Marcus from John chapter 20.]
Jn 21:1 After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples
Mt 28:16 at the mountain arranged.
Mt 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
[Or]
Acts 1:7 It is not for you to know times or dates that the Father has decided by his own authority.
Mt 28:19a Go therefore, make disciples of all nations.
Acts 1:8b Then you will be my witnesses not only in Jerusalem but throughout Judea and indeed to earth’s remotest end.

Sheshbazzar

:hobbyhorse: