Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duke Leto · 08-12-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Actually I am starting to notice that many of the sects had this absurd Latin terminus even when named after things other than individuals. While Eusebius mentions a fourth century law against Novatiani, Valentiniani, Marcianistae, Pauliani and Phryges (Vita Constant. 3.64 -65) there are other -iani sects later in the history of Christianity that don't fit the bill. The Borboriani for instance 'those of filth.' But maybe this was made in Greek following the pattern of other heresies.

Given that not a lot of folks are chiming in and I am fully aware I know nothing for the purposes of this thread... maybe you should be collecting your thoughts and trying to correspond with some academics who know more about the subject? Just actually am trying to be helpful.

stephan huller · 08-12-2012, 03:47 PM

Here is a list of heresies:

Eunomiani, Valentiniani, Montanistae, seu Priscillianistae, Phryges, Marcianistae, Borboriani, Messaliani, Euchitae , sive Enthysiastae , Donatistae , Audiani, Hydroparastatae , Ascodrogitae ,.Photiniani, Pauliani, Marcelliani, et Manichaei.

Some of these examples don't make sense. Messaliani are not named after an individual.

stephan huller · 08-12-2012, 03:48 PM

My point is just that the Latin rule doesn't always apply.

stephan huller · 08-12-2012, 03:58 PM

FWIW I think the ending on the Marcianistae comes from Greek. For instance the members of pagan cult of Sabazios had their associations named after the companions of Sabazios and were called Σεβαζιασταί, Ἀσκλαπιασταί, Ἀπολλωνιασταί, Σεραπιασταί, Διονυσιασταί (from Dionysus).

The Greek for Marcionite is Μαρκιωνιςταί
,
ἐ

stephan huller · 08-12-2012, 04:02 PM

Apparently Hegesippus was the grand-daddy of the hersiologists. His list is cited by Eusebius and was authoritative. This is the answer.

Simon and the Simoniani, Cleobius and the Cleobiani, Dositheus and the Dositheani, Gorthaeus and the Gortheni, and the Masbothaei, and that from these are derived the Menandrianistae, the Marcianistae, the Carpocratiani, the Valentiniani, the Basileidiani, and the Satorniliani

So:

Simoniani
Cleobiani
Dositheani
Gortheni
Masbothaei
Menandrianistae
Marcianistae
Carpocratiani
Valentiani
Basileidiani
Satorniliani

Why on earth are the Menandrianistae and Marcianistae? You'd expect Menandriani and Marciani.

stephan huller · 08-12-2012, 04:17 PM

Take a look at Eusebius's reference in the Life of Constantine:

Ἐπίγνωτε νῦν διὰ τῆς νομοθεσίας ταύτης, ὦ Ναυατιανοί, Οὐαλεντῖνοι, Μαρκιωνισταί, Παυλιανοί, οἵ τε κατὰ Φρύγας ἐπικεκλημένοι, καὶ πάντες ἁπλῶς εἰπεῖν οἱ τὰς αἱρέσεις διὰ τῶν οἰκείων πληροῦντες συστημάτων, ὅσοις ψεύδεσιν ἡ παρ' ὑμῖν ματαιότης ἐμπέπλεκται, καὶ ὅπως ἰοβόλοις τισὶ φαρμάκοις ἡ ὑμετέρα συνέχεται διδασκαλία, ὡς τοὺς μὲν ὑγιαίνοντας εἰς ἀσθένειαν τοὺς δὲ ζῶντας εἰς διηνεκῆ θάνατον ἀπάγεσθαι δι' ὑμῶν. (3.64.2)

It would seem that Hegesippus established the familiar form that all the other Church Fathers used.

stephan huller · 08-12-2012, 07:25 PM

I have to straighten this out but I think I found a German author who touches upon the strange mix of names and Latinism - http://books.google.com/books?id=te4...res%22&f=false

haereticos putant significari qui vulgo Morpxuoiot appellantur. Quorum quum parens sit Mapxos, ex Valentinianis progressus nullique illius scholae ducum, ne ipsi quidem Ptolemaeo, discipulorum numero secundus (Iren. I. c. 13 ss., Hippolyt. VI. c. 39 ss., Euseb IV. c. 11, comp. Epiphan. Haer. 34), illos haud male MaQKiavovs nuucupari. Verum enimvero Marcionis sectatorum exspectabas mentionem nostro loco iniectam. Cf. Apol. I. c. 26 et 58. Itaque Marcioni (s)tas voce Mctgxiavoi Cf. Apol. I. c. 26 et 58. Itaque Marcioni (s)tas voce Mctgxiavoi designari censent Sylburg, Iebb, Maran, Hilgenfeld {Uber d. Evv. Justins p. 272 et Hist.-krit. Einleitung in d. N. T. Lips. 1875. p. 107), Werner [Gesc/i. d. apol. ii. polem. Liter. T. I. p. 521), Tjeeuk Williuk (Justin. Mart. p. 131), Lipsius (IJeber d. Ursprung u. d. itlt. Ge- brauch d. Chrislennamens p. 1 6), vel ipsum Maoxia> viatul legi volunt Lange (Krit. Pred. - Bi- blioth. 1844. T. XXV. Fasc. 6. p. 993), Zeller (Theol. JaJtrbb. T.VII. 1848.p.558),Gass(^Ve«M Hepert. T. XIX. 1849. p. 221), Harnack (Zur Quellenkritik d. Gieschichte d. Gnostic. p. 32s). Gebhardt (Zeitschr. f. d. hist. Theol. 1875. p. 373), alii. Lo- cus fere gemellus Hegesippi ap. Euseb. IV. c. 22. §.5 eodem ha- bet ordine ut Iustinus: Moq- xiav la za\ (CF»K[OK»] Laem. Hein., = McttjxicaviOTal AE*GH Kuf. cett. edd.) x«i KaQitoxga- Ttaroi xai OiaktVTiviavot xal BaoiXti6iavo\ xal Quapropter conieceris apud Iustinum in veteribus codd. mstis Mctu xi ctvia r ui (pro Mapxioj- viaxai) scriptum fuisse. Adde locum ap. Eus. V. c. 16. §. 21, ubi codex Dresd. (= K), dignitate egregio Mazarinaeo (= C) proximus, Mapxtaviaiai pro vulg. ----- praebet. Sic Marcioni(s)tae saepius Mapxtanorat nominati sunt, ut ab auctore catenae in Marc. ap. Cramer. Catenn. in evv. S. Matth. et S. Marci (Oxon.1840) p. 380, et in codice Bodl. gr. misc. 25 (vid. Corp. Apoll. Vol. VIII. Proll. p. XIX) : 'SlQiylvovg Stakoyog xoto HaQxiaviOTtov. Inde colligere poBsis librarium ex MaQxtaviatai apud Iustinum MaQxtavoi effe- cisse, vitio ex viciniatracto (quod librariis non est infrequens): quum omnia nomina, quae sta- tim adduntur, videret in iavoi terminata. Quid? Haud scio an vulgaris lectio ---- vera sit. Nomen enim, opinor, Iustinus flexit de romano Marcius, quod ad Magxiav (nomen aetate inferiore usitatum: Pape fftb. d. Gr. Eigenn. ed. 3. T. II. p. 864) convenit. Eecte Havereampus, quem pridem in adnott. ad Ps.- lust Cohort. c. 9. p. 9E laudavi, ad titulum libri Fl. ----- notavit haec (T. II. p. 437) : „Legitur etiam per gemi- tmiTi n, tanquam 'Annimv nomen romanum esset in graecam speciem detortum ab recto Appius, ut Maoxiav a Marcius." Cf. Coteler. ad Recognn. X. c. 52. Sane Tertullianus Marcionem De resurr. carn. c. 5 Marcium nominavit. Dixit ibi: "Marcio placit." Ita vere Leidens. (saec. XV) et Vindob. 4194 (saec.XV: in hoc alia m. superscr. Marcioni), quem ipse inspexi; duo Vaticc. („pessimae notae") ap. Pamel. et collatus a me Vindob. 3256 (saec. XVI), illam lectionem ex- planantes, offerunt: „Marcioni placet." Vulgata lectio, etiam ab Oehlero perperam recepta, „Marco placet," in nullo exstat cod. msto. Pariter in Constitt. apost. VI. c. 8 pro vulg. ---- legendum videtur -------. A Marcio autem dicuntur Marciani. Vid. Forcell. Lat. lex. T. III. p. 32. Qua ex forma nominis romana etiam illud a (pro to) vocis Magxtaviarai , graeca terminatione donatae, facilem habet ex- plicationem. — Monet Volkma- rus (Jen. Liter. .-Z. 1875. N. 32. p. 587): Justinus „konnte im Zusammenhang dicscr Stelle von Markioniten gar nicht roden, da er hier von solchen angeblichcn Christen handelt, die rfdmXodvra ungescheut speisten, die Markioniten aber überhaupt jede Fleischspeise verwarfen." Hoc ipsum in Satornilianos cadit: at eos tamen Iustinus adiunxit. De quibus Irenaeus I. c. 24. §. 2 (ap. Hippol. VII. c. 28. p. 382): ot rcXeiovg tdv dn ixti- vov (8atornili) x«l {(ityvxov dni- Xovxai. L. I. c. 28. §. 1 (ap. Eu- seb. V. c. 29. §. 2): o.td 2azoo- vivov xol MaQximvog ot xalov- ftfi'01 EyxQattig . . . efii\tv-/mv dnoyr\v tlarjyrjaavTO. Quid igitur? Pronomen nkeovd£tt in ista formula, quae apud veteres quoque Graecos invenitur: Xe- noph. Cyrop. II. c. 3. §. 19 et Conv. II. c. 6. Vid. Kriigcr. ad Anab. II. c. 3. §.15. — AB et omnes edd. Baa tktd tavoi. De- nique AB et Steph. Zoropr/- ktavoL Cf.

Diogenes the Cynic · 08-13-2012, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Chrestos was a common name for slaves (in a condescending way, similar to 'Fido" for dogs).

But the leader of the Christians was not named 'Chrestos.' That's a problem if Chrestianoi was more original than Christianoi.

It's not. Paul's Christos predates all of it. It's just that Christos was not a commonplace word in Greek, being a Hebraism, so they heard it as the name which was familiar to them, "Chrestos."

Diogenes the Cynic · 08-13-2012, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Here is a list of heresies:

Eunomiani, Valentiniani, Montanistae, seu Priscillianistae, Phryges, Marcianistae, Borboriani, Messaliani, Euchitae , sive Enthysiastae , Donatistae , Audiani, Hydroparastatae , Ascodrogitae ,.Photiniani, Pauliani, Marcelliani, et Manichaei.

Some of these examples don't make sense. Messaliani are not named after an individual.

The suffix doesn't have to indicate the following of an individual, it can also just be a philosophy, or political party or really any group or idea. It's very analogous to the suffix "-ist" in English. One can be a Marxist or a nudist. The suffix is very generic.

tanya · 08-13-2012, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

It's not. Paul's Christos predates all of it.

Links?

references?

dates?

basis for dating?

This post has been a useless waste of forum bandwidth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

De quibus Irenaeus I. c. 24. §. 2 (ap. Hippol. VII. c. 28. p. 382): ot rcXeiovg tdv dn ixti- vov (8atornili) x«l {(ityvxov dni- Xovxai. L. I. c. 28. §. 1 (ap. Eu- seb. V. c. 29. §. 2): o.td 2azoo- vivov xol MaQximvog ot xalov- ftfi'01 EyxQattig . . . efii\tv-/mv dnoyr\v tlarjyrjaavTO. Quid igitur?

Today, Google announced that it is laying off 20% of the Motorola workforce. Motorola, of course, invented the cpu (68000), (rival of ibm's adoption of Intel's 8086 artchitecture,) from which 32 bit APPLE computers sprang (earlier versions, 16 bit cpu's, had been based on the 6502 cpu). Google rose 2% today, as a consequence of firing all those employees.

What has this to do with "Quid igitur"?

Politics governs everything. We are asking fundamental questions here about "Chrestus" vs. "Christus". We need to understand, that, as today, one worries about market share, aapl vs. samsung, or google vs. aapl, so too, in the past, concern about grain markets, fish production, and other exportable items to Rome, influenced decision making, at the highest levels. Do we really imagine that 2000 years ago, decisions were made based on ideology, alone, rather than pure economic factors?

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08-12-2012, 03:47 PM	#52
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here is a list of heresies: Eunomiani, Valentiniani, Montanistae, seu Priscillianistae, Phryges, Marcianistae, Borboriani, Messaliani, Euchitae , sive Enthysiastae , Donatistae , Audiani, Hydroparastatae , Ascodrogitae ,.Photiniani, Pauliani, Marcelliani, et Manichaei. Some of these examples don't make sense. Messaliani are not named after an individual.

08-12-2012, 03:48 PM	#53
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	My point is just that the Latin rule doesn't always apply.

08-12-2012, 03:58 PM	#54
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	FWIW I think the ending on the Marcianistae comes from Greek. For instance the members of pagan cult of Sabazios had their associations named after the companions of Sabazios and were called Σεβαζιασταί, Ἀσκλαπιασταί, Ἀπολλωνιασταί, Σεραπιασταί, Διονυσιασταί (from Dionysus). The Greek for Marcionite is Μαρκιωνιςταί , ἐ

08-12-2012, 04:02 PM	#55
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Apparently Hegesippus was the grand-daddy of the hersiologists. His list is cited by Eusebius and was authoritative. This is the answer. Simon and the Simoniani, Cleobius and the Cleobiani, Dositheus and the Dositheani, Gorthaeus and the Gortheni, and the Masbothaei, and that from these are derived the Menandrianistae, the Marcianistae, the Carpocratiani, the Valentiniani, the Basileidiani, and the Satorniliani So: Simoniani Cleobiani Dositheani Gortheni Masbothaei Menandrianistae Marcianistae Carpocratiani Valentiani Basileidiani Satorniliani Why on earth are the Menandrianistae and Marcianistae? You'd expect Menandriani and Marciani.

08-12-2012, 04:17 PM	#56
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Take a look at Eusebius's reference in the Life of Constantine: Ἐπίγνωτε νῦν διὰ τῆς νομοθεσίας ταύτης, ὦ Ναυατιανοί, Οὐαλεντῖνοι, Μαρκιωνισταί, Παυλιανοί, οἵ τε κατὰ Φρύγας ἐπικεκλημένοι, καὶ πάντες ἁπλῶς εἰπεῖν οἱ τὰς αἱρέσεις διὰ τῶν οἰκείων πληροῦντες συστημάτων, ὅσοις ψεύδεσιν ἡ παρ' ὑμῖν ματαιότης ἐμπέπλεκται, καὶ ὅπως ἰοβόλοις τισὶ φαρμάκοις ἡ ὑμετέρα συνέχεται διδασκαλία, ὡς τοὺς μὲν ὑγιαίνοντας εἰς ἀσθένειαν τοὺς δὲ ζῶντας εἰς διηνεκῆ θάνατον ἀπάγεσθαι δι' ὑμῶν. (3.64.2) It would seem that Hegesippus established the familiar form that all the other Church Fathers used.

08-12-2012, 07:25 PM	#57
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I have to straighten this out but I think I found a German author who touches upon the strange mix of names and Latinism - http://books.google.com/books?id=te4...res%22&f=false haereticos putant significari qui vulgo Morpxuoiot appellantur. Quorum quum parens sit Mapxos, ex Valentinianis progressus nullique illius scholae ducum, ne ipsi quidem Ptolemaeo, discipulorum numero secundus (Iren. I. c. 13 ss., Hippolyt. VI. c. 39 ss., Euseb IV. c. 11, comp. Epiphan. Haer. 34), illos haud male MaQKiavovs nuucupari. Verum enimvero Marcionis sectatorum exspectabas mentionem nostro loco iniectam. Cf. Apol. I. c. 26 et 58. Itaque Marcioni (s)tas voce Mctgxiavoi Cf. Apol. I. c. 26 et 58. Itaque Marcioni (s)tas voce Mctgxiavoi designari censent Sylburg, Iebb, Maran, Hilgenfeld {Uber d. Evv. Justins p. 272 et Hist.-krit. Einleitung in d. N. T. Lips. 1875. p. 107), Werner [Gesc/i. d. apol. ii. polem. Liter. T. I. p. 521), Tjeeuk Williuk (Justin. Mart. p. 131), Lipsius (IJeber d. Ursprung u. d. itlt. Ge- brauch d. Chrislennamens p. 1 6), vel ipsum Maoxia> viatul legi volunt Lange (Krit. Pred. - Bi- blioth. 1844. T. XXV. Fasc. 6. p. 993), Zeller (Theol. JaJtrbb. T.VII. 1848.p.558),Gass(^Ve«M Hepert. T. XIX. 1849. p. 221), Harnack (Zur Quellenkritik d. Gieschichte d. Gnostic. p. 32s). Gebhardt (Zeitschr. f. d. hist. Theol. 1875. p. 373), alii. Lo- cus fere gemellus Hegesippi ap. Euseb. IV. c. 22. §.5 eodem ha- bet ordine ut Iustinus: Moq- xiav la za\ (CF»K[OK»] Laem. Hein., = McttjxicaviOTal AE*GH Kuf. cett. edd.) x«i KaQitoxga- Ttaroi xai OiaktVTiviavot xal BaoiXti6iavo\ xal Quapropter conieceris apud Iustinum in veteribus codd. mstis Mctu xi ctvia r ui (pro Mapxioj- viaxai) scriptum fuisse. Adde locum ap. Eus. V. c. 16. §. 21, ubi codex Dresd. (= K), dignitate egregio Mazarinaeo (= C) proximus, Mapxtaviaiai pro vulg. ----- praebet. Sic Marcioni(s)tae saepius Mapxtanorat nominati sunt, ut ab auctore catenae in Marc. ap. Cramer. Catenn. in evv. S. Matth. et S. Marci (Oxon.1840) p. 380, et in codice Bodl. gr. misc. 25 (vid. Corp. Apoll. Vol. VIII. Proll. p. XIX) : 'SlQiylvovg Stakoyog xoto HaQxiaviOTtov. Inde colligere poBsis librarium ex MaQxtaviatai apud Iustinum MaQxtavoi effe- cisse, vitio ex viciniatracto (quod librariis non est infrequens): quum omnia nomina, quae sta- tim adduntur, videret in iavoi terminata. Quid? Haud scio an vulgaris lectio ---- vera sit. Nomen enim, opinor, Iustinus flexit de romano Marcius, quod ad Magxiav (nomen aetate inferiore usitatum: Pape fftb. d. Gr. Eigenn. ed. 3. T. II. p. 864) convenit. Eecte Havereampus, quem pridem in adnott. ad Ps.- lust Cohort. c. 9. p. 9E laudavi, ad titulum libri Fl. ----- notavit haec (T. II. p. 437) : „Legitur etiam per gemi- tmiTi n, tanquam 'Annimv nomen romanum esset in graecam speciem detortum ab recto Appius, ut Maoxiav a Marcius." Cf. Coteler. ad Recognn. X. c. 52. Sane Tertullianus Marcionem De resurr. carn. c. 5 Marcium nominavit. Dixit ibi: "Marcio placit." Ita vere Leidens. (saec. XV) et Vindob. 4194 (saec.XV: in hoc alia m. superscr. Marcioni), quem ipse inspexi; duo Vaticc. („pessimae notae") ap. Pamel. et collatus a me Vindob. 3256 (saec. XVI), illam lectionem ex- planantes, offerunt: „Marcioni placet." Vulgata lectio, etiam ab Oehlero perperam recepta, „Marco placet," in nullo exstat cod. msto. Pariter in Constitt. apost. VI. c. 8 pro vulg. ---- legendum videtur -------. A Marcio autem dicuntur Marciani. Vid. Forcell. Lat. lex. T. III. p. 32. Qua ex forma nominis romana etiam illud a (pro to) vocis Magxtaviarai , graeca terminatione donatae, facilem habet ex- plicationem. — Monet Volkma- rus (Jen. Liter. .-Z. 1875. N. 32. p. 587): Justinus „konnte im Zusammenhang dicscr Stelle von Markioniten gar nicht roden, da er hier von solchen angeblichcn Christen handelt, die rfdmXodvra ungescheut speisten, die Markioniten aber überhaupt jede Fleischspeise verwarfen." Hoc ipsum in Satornilianos cadit: at eos tamen Iustinus adiunxit. De quibus Irenaeus I. c. 24. §. 2 (ap. Hippol. VII. c. 28. p. 382): ot rcXeiovg tdv dn ixti- vov (8atornili) x«l {(ityvxov dni- Xovxai. L. I. c. 28. §. 1 (ap. Eu- seb. V. c. 29. §. 2): o.td 2azoo- vivov xol MaQximvog ot xalov- ftfi'01 EyxQattig . . . efii\tv-/mv dnoyr\v tlarjyrjaavTO. Quid igitur? Pronomen nkeovd£tt in ista formula, quae apud veteres quoque Graecos invenitur: Xe- noph. Cyrop. II. c. 3. §. 19 et Conv. II. c. 6. Vid. Kriigcr. ad Anab. II. c. 3. §.15. — AB et omnes edd. Baa tktd tavoi. De- nique AB et Steph. Zoropr/- ktavoL Cf.

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