Tammuz

It seems that the mainstream position among historians today is that the exodus never happened, and that the Israelites/Hebrews/Jews (what is the difference between those terms anyways?) emerged from among the local Canaanite population.

Thus Moses is most likely a mythological character, right? But I would like to know if there is some historical truth - perhaps a historical human being - behind the man. In any case, which are the sources for the legends of Moses? Surely, they were not made up out of thin air, were they?

Being interested in history - and having being so since childhood - the OT and its stories are much more interesting than the NT.

Jobber

Great question. Of course, many great questions are ones that can never really be answered with certainty, as you already know. This is a perfect example. We do have many pieces that could help us come up with some ideas about the historicity of Moses.

There may indeed have been some connection between the Hebrews and Egypt. The Hyksos (which means "chieftains from the hill country") were Canaanites who ruled parts of Egypt in the 16th & 17th centuries B.C.E. We know that the land of the Canaanites had important trade routes that connected the Mediterranean to the east. There may have been an actual individual from Egypt who became an important part of those who would later call themselves the Hebrews.

In Sunday school we were taught that Moses' name was a Hebrew name that meant "to draw out." However, the name was probably of Egyptian origin. In the same way that names like Thutmose or Ramose meant "Thoth is born" or "Ra is born," Moses' real name probably was a common Egyptian name that had the "mose" ending. Writers of the Hebrew tradition probably edited the first part of his name out because of the embarrassment that it would have caused.

The story of the infant Moses being placed in a basket at the river seems to parallel the Egyptian myth about the birth of Horus. It is also pointed out that the story resembles the Mesopotamian legend of the birth of Sargon I, king of Agade, who conquered Babylon around 2,300 B.C.E.

This information comes out of the book 101 Myths of the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk). You can probably use it to delve into the topic much deeper if you choose.

If you like history, you may enjoy Who Wrote the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Richard Friedman. Excellent book that gives an excellent explanation of the origin of the Pentateuch.

Doug Shaver

What, in your opinion, makes that so unlikely?

Lucretius

My understanding is that Israelites refers to those people and tribes that formed the Northern Kingdom of Israel
Hebrews are the descendants of the patriarch Eber
Jews are those people and tribes from the Southern Kingdom of Judea

To an extent they have come to be interchangeable terms these days but in the past there would have been a significance as to which term was used

gstafleu

The story of the exodus is a fairly standard hero-story, with one interesting twist: the hero is not an individual (like Odysseus) but the whole Jewish people! You're right to say that it is myth, and if you want to find out more about that the primary field to look is not history but comparative mythology. A good start is The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell.

Gerard Stafleu

Tammuz

Yes, at least it seeems that Biblical maximalists consider it plausible that Moses was actually an Egyptian who was sympathic to the Hebrews. The story of the basket would in that case, I guess, be a later story made up (or borrowed) to make Moses one of them.

Thanks!

The story of Moses (as well as much else of the Torah) was probably written down multiple times by persons who were unaware of each other (see the documentary hypothesis). It is very unlikely that the same story (with some local variations) was made up multiple times. Probably, the writers wrote down what was already present in the local folklore.

The Hebrews is the most inclusive term, as Hebrews include both those of the Kingdom of Israel, as well as the Kingdom of Judea, and indeed all those who suypposedly departed from Egypt, and their descendents, right?

Minimalist

Yet, Israel Finkelstein's view of the archaeology of the area is that "Israel" and "Judah" (the names may have been invented later) were always separate kingdoms although both derived from the same general Canaanite population. IN this sense, the field surveys show that "Israel" was always the wealthier and more dominant state while "Judah" was a backward region until late in the 8th century BC.

Biomystic

it is now impossible to rule out the Sarasvati river valley in India as an original homeland for those identifying themselves as "Hebrews". A Canaanite/Indo-Aryan immigrant community may be the origin of the Hebrews, Israelites and later Judeans.

As for Moses, in keeping with Jewish writers propensity to borrow neighboring pagan legendary figures and gods and do Hebrew make-overs on them, I think it's quite probable that "Moses" is a makeover and taming of the Egyptian pharaoh Tutmoses III who conquered Canaan about the time Moses was supposed to be putting around.

Strip the pagan god Thoth off the name and you get "Moses". And then add a Hebrew re-definition of "moses" as Hebrews re-defined "Israel", "El" and who knows how many other names to suit the Jewish agenda of creating tall tales of a non-existent Israelite Golden Age of power and glory puffing themselves up to equal Egypt or Babylon or Greece or Rome.

Minimalist

The pharoah who chased the Hyksos out of Egypt c 1550 was named Ahmose which, to be fair, fits your analogy even better.

Cheerful Charlie

[quote=Cheerful Charlie;4589034]My theory and its just speculation, Egyptian the 1400's BCE ruled Retenu(Palestine). It was Egyptian policy to take the children of local rulers of client states to Egypt for education. The Armana letters showed these men thought of themselves as educated men with status and were quick to take hurt if slighted.

By 1200 BCE, Egyptian power collapsed by the reign of Rameses VI.The last garrisons were withdrawn and these Palestianian city states and provinces were on their own. Many of the leaders of these states were Egyptianized natives, and there were realignments of the various tribes, leaders of small states and client tribes as the Philistines and Syrians realigned themselves to attack the remaining Canaanite city states.
Old tribes, city leaders and new tribes on the move probably formed coalitions around natural leaders, shieks. Most assuredly some remnants and descendents of Egyptianized and trained leaders, possibly even some Egyptians "gone native". Moses was one of these or desendent of one. Little remembered except as a mythical leader,this was the basis of the later legends written about Moses and how these tribes ended up in Palestine and some connection to Egypt.

They knew some early Israelites had a connection with Egypt but did not have enough history to know exactly what.

Other scraps of Canaanite myths, Queen Io, seems to how that the idea of Canaanites who went to Egypt, came out of Egypt and established states was a stock Canaanite mythology template.

My guess anyway.

CC