Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tristan Scott · 07-30-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Those are not names but titles. El = high one; sir; big boss; etc. Hweh is an anagram of a passage of verses. Shaddai = protective shield. There are no names, descriptions or personalities given to the Creator - these are later Christian conclusions. Moses asked for a name and was only given an abstraction.

Doesn't matter, Joseph, in Shemot 6.3 Hashem tells Moses that he appeared to the patriarchs as that name.

But all this is tangental to the discussion of when did the Monotheism actually begin-the fact that early on God would be seen as an All Mighty God supports the idea that he was a God above all other Gods, which in turn supports the idea that monotheism wasn't completely accepted by the early patriarchs, IMO it was more henotheistic.

semiopen · 07-30-2009, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Those are not names but titles. El = high one; sir; big boss; etc. Hweh is an anagram of a passage of verses. Shaddai = protective shield. There are no names, descriptions or personalities given to the Creator - these are later Christian conclusions. Moses asked for a name and was only given an abstraction.

Doesn't matter, Joseph, in Shemot 6.3 Hashem tells Moses that he appeared to the patriarchs as that name.

But all this is tangental to the discussion of when did the Monotheism actually begin-the fact that early on God would be seen as an All Mighty God supports the idea that he was a God above all other Gods, which in turn supports the idea that monotheism wasn't completely accepted by the early patriarchs, IMO it was more henotheistic.

Not sure what "early patriarchs" means. The bible was written much after this so the henotheism which might be expressed with the patriarchs also carries over to the "later" books.

One interesting example of this is human sacrifice, which is only forbidden when it is to other gods. There are many examples of this. This link seems like a good source: http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm

Regarding the henotheism, a remarkable example is given where a human sacrifice to another god defeats YHWH.

Quote:

After the time of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel split up into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah.

When the kings of Israel and Judah were wining their invasion against the Moabites, the Moabite king made a burnt offering of his oldest son. A great wrath came upon Israel and they had to withdraw. In effect, the Moabite god, Chemosh, defeated Yahweh.

Quote:

26When the king of Moab saw that the battle was going against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through, opposite the king of Edom; but they could not.
27Then he took his eldest son who was to reign in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there came great wrath upon Israel; and they withdrew from him and returned to their own land. (2 Kings. 3:26-27)

There were probably some Israelites that worshipped only YWHW and some who worshipped other Gods. The number of examples are just overwhelming, each of which can only be explained by a different song and dance demonstrating why up is down, left is right, and right is wrong.

Calling this Henotheism, Monolatry, etc is sort of a song and dance of its own. There was no clear monotheism until after the exile.

Tristan Scott · 07-30-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Doesn't matter, Joseph, in Shemot 6.3 Hashem tells Moses that he appeared to the patriarchs as that name.

But all this is tangental to the discussion of when did the Monotheism actually begin-the fact that early on God would be seen as an All Mighty God supports the idea that he was a God above all other Gods, which in turn supports the idea that monotheism wasn't completely accepted by the early patriarchs, IMO it was more henotheistic.

Not sure what "early patriarchs" means. The bible was written much after this so the henotheism which might be expressed with the patriarchs also carries over to the "later" books.

One interesting example of this is human sacrifice, which is only forbidden when it is to other gods. There are many examples of this. This link seems like a good source: http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm

Regarding the henotheism, a remarkable example is given where a human sacrifice to another god defeats YHWH.

Quote:

After the time of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel split up into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah.

When the kings of Israel and Judah were wining their invasion against the Moabites, the Moabite king made a burnt offering of his oldest son. A great wrath came upon Israel and they had to withdraw. In effect, the Moabite god, Chemosh, defeated Yahweh.

There were probably some Israelites that worshipped only YWHW and some who worshipped other Gods. The number of examples are just overwhelming, each of which can only be explained by a different song and dance demonstrating why up is down, left is right, and right is wrong.

Calling this Henotheism, Monolatry, etc is sort of a song and dance of its own. There was no clear monotheism until after the exile.

Sure but in the final anlysis they are all polytheistic as opposed to monotheistic. If a cult worships a god yet acknowledges other gods, they are really polytheistic. Even to Moses in the Ten Commandments, God aludes to "other" gods when when he says Thou shalt have no other gods before Me, implying that other Gods are lesser. He also tells him he is a jealous God, that he does not want his followers to serve other gods.

The patriarchs I am referring to are the patriarchs listed in Shemot 6.3; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I sould have not used the word early.

tradewinds · 08-06-2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Those are not names but titles. El = high one; sir; big boss; etc. Hweh is an anagram of a passage of verses. Shaddai = protective shield. There are no names, descriptions or personalities given to the Creator - these are later Christian conclusions. Moses asked for a name and was only given an abstraction.

No, you're incorrect. Read Torah. Hashem tells Moses that the patriarchs called him El Shaddai, Job constantly calls Yahweh Shaddai. The most common translation for El Shaddai is God All mighty.

How did you come to find that interesting?

tradewinds · 08-06-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Not sure what "early patriarchs" means. The bible was written much after this so the henotheism which might be expressed with the patriarchs also carries over to the "later" books.

One interesting example of this is human sacrifice, which is only forbidden when it is to other gods. There are many examples of this. This link seems like a good source: http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm

Regarding the henotheism, a remarkable example is given where a human sacrifice to another god defeats YHWH.

Yes there were many polytheistic cultures mainly because god were seen as some Christians conceive angels to be, super human, but human like in passion. Most gods came from emerging agricultures and many were fertility figures, gods then were helpers that warded off human fears.

There were probably some Israelites that worshipped only YWHW and some who worshipped other Gods. The number of examples are just overwhelming, each of which can only be explained by a different song and dance demonstrating why up is down, left is right, and right is wrong.

Calling this Henotheism, Monolatry, etc is sort of a song and dance of its own. There was no clear monotheism until after the exile.

Sure but in the final anlysis they are all polytheistic as opposed to monotheistic. If a cult worships a god yet acknowledges other gods, they are really polytheistic. Even to Moses in the Ten Commandments, God aludes to "other" gods when when he says Thou shalt have no other gods before Me, implying that other Gods are lesser. He also tells him he is a jealous God, that he does not want his followers to serve other gods.

The patriarchs I am referring to are the patriarchs listed in Shemot 6.3; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I sould have not used the word early.

Yes there were many polytheistic cultures mainly because god were seen as some Christians conceive angels to be, super human, but human like in passion. Most gods came from emerging agricultures cultural and many were fertility figures, gods then were helpers that warded off human fears.

tradewinds · 08-06-2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by tradewinds

Unlikely, in fact, incorrect, as Akhenaten lived before Moses, but Moses could have been an Egyptian, perhaps his grandnephew? Moses might have come to monotheism through similar beliefs as Akhenaten held. Do a search on the dates, I think you might come across what I am suggesting.

Egypt at no time had Monotheism. The belief in one SUN Deity, for a brief experiment, is not monotheism but mono-polytheism. This too was tried for political reasons against the Egyptian priests - it was not a belief system. No nation observed Monotheism - it was inculcated as barbaric even in later Roman times.

Well, whatever, you seem to be trifling with words

tradewinds · 08-06-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by tradewinds

Not to covet be not be realistic today; we do not legislate wishes not acted upon, in other times perhaps it was more feasible.

Covet = stalking; an obsession - not simply desiring in secret. This is a bona fide law today.

Quote:

All of the dietary laws have a practical application, the control of livestock and avoidance of animals prone to undetectable disease. The religious aspect is fitting for the time and found in most ancient societies.

The dietary laws are not seen elsewhere in the ancient world, and were a major cause of wars with many nations. That some of the Mosaic laws are seen in one source [Babylon], and wrongly dated as older, has probems. The hebrews had no contact with Babylon till 580 BCE; the Hamurabi code is post-Abraham; while many obvious laws did predate Abraham - e.g. circumcizion. Its not the commonality of obvious laws, but the new, uncommon laws which signify the Hebrew as an independent set of laws, and its total absence of warring dieties which made it so controversial. Monotheism was a dangerous law in the era of divine kings.

Was it not true that the original Hebrews believed god was against a king. This might explain some of this. The diet idea I am sure was known in other cultures.

Covet meant covet.

Tristan Scott · 08-07-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tradewinds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

No, you're incorrect. Read Torah. Hashem tells Moses that the patriarchs called him El Shaddai, Job constantly calls Yahweh Shaddai. The most common translation for El Shaddai is God All mighty.

How did you come to find that interesting?

It is of interest to this thread, which seems to have lost it's focus on how Judaism started.

To summarize my position I would say that if Judaism started with Abraham, then it did not start as a monotheistic religion. The patriarchs were most likely all cognizant of the gods of Canaan, Ea, El, Marduk, Mummu, Baal, etc., etc. The only information we have of the patriarchs is in the Pentateuch, written centuries later. But we also know of the people of Canaan from writings that were written during the interim.

In the 7-800 years between Abraham and Moses it seems that the Hebrews transitioned to the point, IMO, to where although other, lesser gods existed, they only worshipped one god, whose actual name is somewhat slippery. (I think the importance of this god's name was much less important to them than it is to us today, looking back, trying to make sense of it all. A common mistake by theists as well as atheists is that we forget that the writings we are looking at were written for the people contemporary to the writings.) I think the actual monotheistic element of the religion wasn't fully cemented unitil around 6-700 BCE.

Then, of course, Rabbinic Judaism, which is mainstream today was developed in the first few centuries of the common era.

tradewinds · 08-07-2009, 01:53 PM

I will agree that you have a good timeline.

As to the polytheistic gods, to hear Robert R. McLaughlin of Bible Ministries tell it, the fallen angels who had bodies, the “Sons of God’ were these Egyptian and Greek gods, and there sons from the “daughters of men’ were Hercules and Achilles.

If you have questions, this man has answers; it would seem to be his motto, ‘let no question go unanswered’.

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08-07-2009, 01:53 PM	#69
tradewinds Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tucson Arizona Posts: 380	I will agree that you have a good timeline. As to the polytheistic gods, to hear Robert R. McLaughlin of Bible Ministries tell it, the fallen angels who had bodies, the “Sons of God’ were these Egyptian and Greek gods, and there sons from the “daughters of men’ were Hercules and Achilles. If you have questions, this man has answers; it would seem to be his motto, ‘let no question go unanswered’.

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