Freethought & Rationalism Archive

premjan · 12-24-2006, 05:18 AM

The eastern mystics are not known to be that big on a literal God, so definitely Jesus didn't learn his lesson well (unless he learned from dualists there who are into a literal godhead) - that, or he was talking God out of one side of his mouth and mysticism out of the other.

adren@line · 12-24-2006, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Usually Christian scholars say that the Gospel of Thomas, gnostic stuff etc. was actually manufactured by people following Hindu-type cults who wanted to make Christianity conform to it. They usually come up with some dates to support this as in gospel of thomas was of post-Jesus manufacture.

Wonder if his death is then a sort of 'abhimanyu' case where he didn't realize being spiritual would lead to his death - as he wonders at one point whether his God has forsaken him.

Again this sort of argument is made with respect to Sufism - claim that it originated with Muhammad though imparted only to some esoteric disciples and not to the others.

most of the NT is a post-Jesus concoction, and the Vatican has even stated that the NT cannot be taken as ultimate truth and in some parts is clearly wrong.

AS far as Sufism, im pretty sure it did not originate with Mohhamed. There is hardly anything in the Quran to support that claim.

If indeed Mohhamed was an enlightened Sufi, he would not have engaged in invasion or killing sprees. He would have been an Arab Buddha or Jesus, but he was not.

premjan · 12-24-2006, 05:58 AM

I suppose Jesus was nonviolent but he was a bit of a revolutionary seditionist and he had some crazy beliefs such as the world would end soon, and that the world was created recently, that God was his father etc.

I am not entirely sure that Jesus was similar to an 'eastern mystic' - he said he came to bring not peace but war and is said to have cursed a tree to never have fruit. Of course you could argue he was an eastern mystic and all the bad stuff in Christianity came from Paul.

As for Muhammad not being a mystic or enlightened - that part could be true, though River (a Sufi on this board) would not agree.

Malachi151 · 12-24-2006, 06:50 AM

Jesus Goes Round the World!

After a stop in India, Jesus Traveled on to Japan, and then the crossed the Pacific Ocean to go to North America, where he appeared before the Native Americans! Jesus loved everyone in the whole wide world with all his heart, so he visited every person individually, spreading his message of peace and love, can't you tell that there was a huge change around the world in the 1st century, when his message of peace and love profoundly affected the world!!

Malachi151 · 12-24-2006, 06:50 AM

Quote:

I suppose Jesus was nonviolent but he was a bit of a revolutionary seditionist and he had some crazy beliefs such as the world would end soon, and that the world was created recently, that God was his father etc.

Jesus didn't exist, so how could "he" be a revolutionary?

premjan · 12-24-2006, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Jesus didn't exist, so how could "he" be a revolutionary?

Well, if he didn't exist, he didn't go to Kashmir.

the minnow · 12-24-2006, 10:53 AM

If Jesus existed, would he have been aware of "Eastern philosophy" at all? I mean, historically did the peoples of Israel and the Near East at the time, know of, or have contact with the peoples of India or the Far east? Would they have even known of their existence?

The Atheist · 12-24-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the minnow

If Jesus existed, would he have been aware of "Eastern philosophy" at all?

His old man built the place, so I guess he'd know.

Malachi151 · 12-24-2006, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the minnow

If Jesus existed, would he have been aware of "Eastern philosophy" at all? I mean, historically did the peoples of Israel and the Near East at the time, know of, or have contact with the peoples of India or the Far east? Would they have even known of their existence?

The conquest of Alexander united everything from India to Greece, and there had been trade through that region for a long time. The Buddhists texts had been translated into Greek by about the 2nd or 2st century BCE. There was a lot of contact and trade between India and the Greek speaking world, as far as Egypt and Greece by the 1st century CE.

mountainman · 12-25-2006, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

The conquest of Alexander united everything from India to Greece, and there had been trade through that region for a long time. The Buddhists texts had been translated into Greek by about the 2nd or 2st century BCE. There was a lot of contact and trade between India and the Greek speaking world, as far as Egypt and Greece by the 1st century CE.

Not only that, Julia Domna was quite influential, and the
publication and distribution of the work of Philostratus
"The Life of Apollonius of Tyana" would have been of
considerable scale.

In fact, Eusebius of Caesarea writes a refutation:
THE TREATISE OF EUSEBIUS, THE SON OF PAMPHILUS, AGAINST THE LIFE OF APOLLONIUS OF TYANA WRITTEN BY PHILOSTRATUS, OCCASIONED BY THE PARALLEL DRAWN BY HIEROCLES BETWEEN HIM AND CHRIST.

In order for Eusebius to have written the considerable refutation above,
the story concerning Apollonius trecking to India would have been
popular knowledge, if not in the first and second centuries, then most
certainly in the third (it was published c.216-220).

In fact, the above treatise by Eusebius actually mentions "India"
or "Indians" two dozen times.

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12-24-2006, 05:18 AM	#31
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	The eastern mystics are not known to be that big on a literal God, so definitely Jesus didn't learn his lesson well (unless he learned from dualists there who are into a literal godhead) - that, or he was talking God out of one side of his mouth and mysticism out of the other.

12-24-2006, 05:58 AM	#33
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	I suppose Jesus was nonviolent but he was a bit of a revolutionary seditionist and he had some crazy beliefs such as the world would end soon, and that the world was created recently, that God was his father etc. I am not entirely sure that Jesus was similar to an 'eastern mystic' - he said he came to bring not peace but war and is said to have cursed a tree to never have fruit. Of course you could argue he was an eastern mystic and all the bad stuff in Christianity came from Paul. As for Muhammad not being a mystic or enlightened - that part could be true, though River (a Sufi on this board) would not agree.

12-24-2006, 06:50 AM	#34
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Jesus Goes Round the World! After a stop in India, Jesus Traveled on to Japan, and then the crossed the Pacific Ocean to go to North America, where he appeared before the Native Americans! Jesus loved everyone in the whole wide world with all his heart, so he visited every person individually, spreading his message of peace and love, can't you tell that there was a huge change around the world in the 1st century, when his message of peace and love profoundly affected the world!!

12-24-2006, 10:53 AM	#37
the minnow Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 74	If Jesus existed, would he have been aware of "Eastern philosophy" at all? I mean, historically did the peoples of Israel and the Near East at the time, know of, or have contact with the peoples of India or the Far east? Would they have even known of their existence?

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