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I had a discussion with my mother (a minister) about Judas, and I thought I'd bounce a few ideas around.

Something long struck me as odd about the tale of Judas and his betrayal, even as a kid. If he was in fact an agent of evil (as depicted by some), why did he go back to the priests who had paid him and cast the coins back in their faces? And then commit suicide? That doesn't strike me as the behavior of someone who is a willing traitor.

My mother suggested that Judas had hoped that Jesus was going to be a military leader, rallying the Hebrews against the Romans, and that he was disillusioned when Jesus did not. This is not an uncommon interpetation among liberal Christian groups as I understand it.

I suggested that Judas may have been duped by the priesthood. Perhaps they led him to believe that they would grant validation and ligitimacy to Jesus, and paid him for his efforts. When Jesus was instead put on trial and executed, I imagine that Judas would have reacted rather badly to the events...enraged at the priests and himself. To me this seems a more logical conclusion if one insists that the Jesus story actually happened.

Agent of evil or hapless dupe?

:wave:

IamMoose

Bear in mind that Judas was a thief, who kept money given to the disciples for himself. This seems to suggest that he was not whiter than white in all respects, although of course it's a long way from that to betraying the son of God.

I was always disturbed that Satan was supposed to have entered Judas, thus indicating to me that he did not act of his own free will. A Christian friend I asked about this said that Satan could only have entered Judas if Judas was not good at heart or something. Although he certainly seems to have repented in the end.

Do most Christians belief that Judas went to hell, or are they unsure on the subject?

Ojuice5001

I've seen Judas pointed to as the one person who is known to have gone to hell. The inference is made from a remark of Jesus's where he says of Judas that "It would have been better for that one if he were not born."

IamMoose

But Judas repented. Aren't all sins forgivable? (except sin against the holy spirit, whatever that is).

MonCapitan2002

Don't know, don't care. Since it all mythology with no basis in history, I really don't give a shit if he was a traitor or pawn. If these events did happen in some form, I still wouldn't give a fuck seeing as they happened nearly two milennia ago.

funinspace

In some ways it's another of those impossible questions to answer.
Yet Jesus knew what and who he was. He was certainly capable to guiding him to the right path. Or was he just like the Pharoh, and born condemned by the loving God. Oh, yes God knew his heart and saw his future badness; so just picked a man that would be condemned already. Yep, no logical problems, free will issues, or PoE here. So Jesus let someone he befriended out to hang. As far as any potential theoretical afterlife's: who could know, even Christians. Even by their own doctrine, it's not our's to know. And if he wasn't born, some other SOB would have to have been chosen to carry this burden. Secondly, during this transitory phase of God's revelation, can anyone really say what the criteria was for salvation? I'm sure some here think they have absolute knowledge here, since they are "true believers" and have the correct truth.

There's allot of it depends here. And it depends on which sect's dogma one buys into. Could you really ever have been saved, if he went against him? And are you still saved even after one rejects Jesus? Can you come back after rejecting him? Hebrew's 6:4-6 comes to mind. I'll go back to who could really know even if it all were true.

enrious

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/jesus-chr...das-death.html

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Well, I'm not so concerned about theology as the events. The only question in my mind is the why.

Yes, I know the entire tale of the Crucifiction is questionable at best. The motives and actions of Judas are only minor details. Nevertheless, I regard what I consider to be an unresolved issue as a kind of sour note that I'd like to straighten out.

What motivated the actions of this character?

The biggest problem I've run into is that the versions that claim that Judas was a "Satan-possessed traitor" is that they were (ostensably) written by people who already had reason to dislike him. That detail renders their claims about his motives questionable. Most of the actions and motives of the other characters in the tale are relatively clear--to the degree that they are two-dimensional. Judas is the only standout in my mind.

But then again, my mind is a little warped.

IamMoose

Well, if one believes in biblical inerrancy, then Judas WAS a Satan possessed traitor. That's what it says.

I don't see tho why Judas could not have been saved even after rejecting Christ .. I mean, Peter was, no?

funinspace

In that context he was clearly a pawn/puppet. In a literary sense, I would say he was the pawn of God, not Satan. It was God's plan of fulfillment. And God obviously wanted a cast of characters to fill out his tragic play like Pilate, Pharasee's, Peter, Mary, and Judas. Why would Satan cooperate with that, or was God playing him as well? He's the only standout? Hum, I could think of a few others, but ok it's your question.