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Old 02-10-2009, 07:19 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar View Post
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Originally Posted by Transient View Post
Look, that is a totally different matter to a judge handing down a sentence that applies to later generations - that would be abominable and that is what we have here - god as the judge doing just that, not with Cain but in that other case in the bible that I mentioned.
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Except that the god of the Jews seems to like passing on punishment to quite a few generations after the perpetrator. Somewhere in the OT it says something about the punishment going on for a few or maybe even 7 generations
Transient, I am no defender of the ethics of the OT Biblegawd YHWH.
Certainly there are instances of "YHWH" condemning and punishing entire peoples and their innocent posterity. And even as you, I must regard such a blanket condemnation as only befitting of an unjust, or even utterly insane judge, or god.

Yet I regard the Biblical texts as all being entirely the creations of men, and not of any god.
In this case, the stories are the productions of a barely civilised nomadic people transitioning to settled urban environments, one whose religious literature quite often reflects their writers desire to vilify, and to marginalise competing cultures, and to also serve as the national rationalisation and justification for their subduing and permanently enslaving these so accursed "other" peoples.

The Torah being their cleverly devised religiously sanctioned "Takeover License" for the theft, and for the occupation of these "others" lands, the appropriation (theft) of their goods, and the for the permanent continuation of the practice of their enslavement, and for the maintaining of class distinctions.

These other peoples must be kept and held under a permanent "curse" by the god of the Hebrew's, or there would no longer be any excuse to keep their children and grandchildren in generations of slavery.

They had to rationalise and justify their conduct in their public records (The Torah) or be seen as merely being the marauding thieves that they were, both by themselves, by their posterity, and by the larger civilizations around them.

And also out of their superstitious FEAR of their god YHWH punishing them for the horrible things that they were doing in his name.
That is why so much of the Torah text needs to be devoted to appeasing sacrifices, and to the sucking up to YHWH, so that they can appease him, and keep "him" on "their" side, excusing and overlooking the atrocities that they KNOW that THEY are doing, (not "YHWH") rather than him coming down on them with the punishment that they KNOW that they really deserve for the acts they are engaged in.

Sadly, religionists have managed to peddle this old crock of crap to much of the rest of the world as being "The Law" of the one true God", so by bringing untold generations of suffering and abuse upon millions of innocent peoples.

Not that it is not good for men to have faith in something.
Faith in what really is true will always trump any nations old ethnocentric religious propaganda documents and claims.

I have full Faith that in time these old writings will be seen and known by all for what they really are, and what they reveal about the value systems of those who have so long promoted them.
And then this also shall pass, as all will be forgotten, and shall dissipate, less than a tiny puff of smoke upon the face of the cosmos and the extent of all eternity.
When the truth sets men free, they are free indeed, evermore.
Seems like I got caught up in the post-second world war church era where my parents turned to the church after that terrible war and I got indoctrinated.
Standing back and looking from a distance at the bible it just not seem at all real any more. It must be very hard for anyone who was not indoctrinated at an early age to see it as real unless they come to the church for emotional or social reasons and they just accept it because their new found friends do.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:57 AM   #62
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I'll be turning 60 in May, and was also subjected to some pretty intense indoctrination, which I've written about in other recent threads, so will not it repeat here.
I've found this Forum quite effective at deprogramming (I arrived as a staunch Bible believer, and maintained that stance for around five years-until I could no longer and in no way deny the evidence, without compromising my conscience and integrity)
And still it is at times difficult to maintain a fair separation between those good things that I receive from the Bible, against the need to acknowledge that in most common senses, it has proven to be far less than what it was presented to be.
These things are not simple black or white, good versus evil, or right versus wrong. There are many good and ethical observations in The Bible, worthy of accepting and defending, so it simply does not do to reject or dismiss out of hand everything written in the texts, but then neither should one be so gullible as to not consider and admit to its biases and shortcomings, or fall for the lines of them that would use and abuse it as a tool to manipulate and dominate.

It is my sincere hope that you find true friends here, not a cadre of hand-pumping back-slappers, but good honest folks who will tell you the "hard things" that you need to know for the truth and for freedoms sake.
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