Freethought & Rationalism Archive

espritch · 11-27-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lógos Sokratikós

On the other hand, I don't think you can blame religion because of some loons any more than you can blame atheism because of some other loons.

There was nothing loony about the reaction of the woman who lost her daughter to the tsunami. Her response was quite logical. She believed, like most theists, in the existence of an omnipotent, loving, and just God. If God is omnipotent, then tsunamis don't happen randomly. If God is loving, he wouldn't visit suffering on people without reason. If God is just, then such suffering can only be a result of some sin the sufferer has committed. The logic is impeccable. It is the underlying premises that are questionable.

This has been a problem for theists for about as long as there has been theism. The Book of Job deals explicitly with this. And what is God's answer when Job finally gets to ask him why he has been visited with such suffering? God basically tells him that he does what he does and who is Job to question him. The God of Job is a little hard to distinguish from a random and uncaring universe.

I seem to recall reading that the Book of Job originally ended there. Some later Rabi decided it didn't show God in a very good light and tacked on the happy ending. It makes you kind of wonder if the person who wrote Job was a closet atheist. :devil:

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Are theists better off than atheists when it comes to mourning and the prospect of your own imminent personal death, because of the afterlife belief?

I really don't know. I do know that no atheist ever has to worry that his "unsaved" friend or loved one who died is now suffering in some eternal Hell. I'd say that is definitely a big plus mark for the atheist view.

Albert Cipriani · 11-27-2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espritch

I do know that no atheist ever has to worry that his "unsaved" friend or loved one who died is now suffering in some eternal Hell. I'd say that is definitely a big plus mark for the atheist view.

Nah. I'm comfortable with taking my chances that my loved ones will go to hell knowing there's a place to rectify the score for people like Stalin. A guy who legally murders 20 million people needs killing in a big way. Hell is that big way. When death just isn't just enough, hell is there fill in what is lacking. Amen. -- Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic Back from the Limbo of the Banned

Thomas II · 11-27-2006, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldYgg

Well, even if we take you at your word about those events, it still isn't indicative of the existence of god. It might be indicative of the existence of some paranormal ability (which could certainly have a natural explanation).

Still, it is quite clear that this doesn't happen to everybody. My wife had no knowledge of her mother's death (and neither did any of the sibilings) when she died. And millions of people die all the time and rarely do you have this kind of experience.

So, at the very least you would have to refine your theory to understand that perhaps specific circumstances led to your ability in this one specific case.

However, given that millions of people die every year and that we think about the people we love when they are close to death or even when we just worry about them - it is not impossible that your 'vision' about your grandfather's death could coincide with his actual death.

I'm sorry for your loss as well. It seems like we get to a point in our lives when life is about loss.

My family (as noted earlier) has only two grandchildren - and no cousins, just the two brothers. Their lives will be about loss for a long time to come. They lost their grandmother while one was 2.5 years old and the other was just a fetus that had a chance for life. Grandfather on my wife's side is 16 years older than grandmother. He's 78 now. I'm 34, and I know that I'm overstressed and carry the typical North American 50 pounds overweight. I could die as young as my fifties as both my grandfathers did (they had help with alcoholism, though).

But, with luck, the best I can hope for the brothers is that they do in fact out live all the previous generation. That, out of 4 grandparents, 5 members of my generation and the two brothers, my sons, eventually, there will only be two people.

And then, in our society it is becoming less of an imperitive to have children.

Of course, I'm still being silly in thinking there is something special about my genetic pattern and that I want it to be passed down.

I can say that I, nor anyone I know in the real world, has ever had an occurrence of knowing someone they love has died at the time of their death, unless they were actually there to witness it.

But, if we look at it scientifically, perhaps we could find the people who have had such experiences, validate those experiences as much as possible and determine the mechanism of what is going on there - or determine that at present we cannot determine what is going on.

Old Ygg

I bet it has a perfectly natural explanation and nothing to do with religious gods. But they way it happened, and believe me that there is no reason for me to lie to you, it seems to me like I "received" her own thoughts at the time of death. Almost like if she would have sent a radio signal when she was dying, saying to herself "Uh,uh! This seems like the time! I'm leaving!...I'm leaving!...
I'm leaving" ...
The scene about her welcoming by her second husband at age about 40, in her prime, was not from HER perspective but from a witness situated out of the immediate scene,to the side and about 50 to 90 feet away. They did not seem to be aware of me at all. It was a scene bathed in the yellow sunset light of a sunny afternoon...The scene was happy and serene...There were other people surrounding her husband , maybe children, I can't remember right now who they were...

On another occasion, about a month and a half before the 9/11 events, I happened to be visiting New York with my son.
A friend suggested visiting the Towers. I felt very strange feeling about it and I said "No way! It feels like something negative can happen there...I don't like it...Let's go instead to visit the "Intrepid",(an aircraft carrier, decommissioned and stationed nearby), so that is what we did instead...
Of course I had no idea about what was going to happen shortly, and yet I
picked "something" which said to me: "Stay away from the Towers! Danger, Will Robinson!"

Was that another coincidence?...I doubt it...

Do I believe it has a natural explanation? ABSOLUTELY!

And no doubt that I would love to find out how does it work.

Unbeatable · 11-27-2006, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldYgg

I don't know about congratulations, but it seems we take the idea of how many and who comes to our funerals as a matter of pride - even though we'll never know it,ourselves unless we're Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer.

Clarification-- I meant congratulations to Lógos, for having such a more or less adaptive perception of reality.

steamer · 11-27-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Cipriani

Nah. I'm comfortable with taking my chances that my loved ones will go to hell knowing there's a place to rectify the score for people like Stalin. A guy who legally murders 20 million people needs killing in a big way. Hell is that big way. When death just isn't just enough, hell is there fill in what is lacking. Amen. -- Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic Back from the Limbo of the Banned

I understand the sentiment, I have an ex-wife.

Imagining a god and a hell for her though would tend to warp the one imagining. It just allows those needing justice to do just that little bit more damage. If your god is real he doesn't need your help imagining such things and if your god is just imagined then it still only you doing the imagining.

Has it occurred to you that Stalin could have converted and be in heaven all crimes forgiven? All he had to do is click his heels together three times and say oh god forgive me I'm sooooo sorry. Oh, never mnd, that's nothing like justice, is it?

Here's another thought for you. Whatever was wrong with Stalin, an all poweful god could fix it like a broken toy. Why does he punish instead? To be more precise, why do you prefer to imagine that instead?

OldYgg · 11-27-2006, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unbeatable

Clarification-- I meant congratulations to Lógos, for having such a more or less adaptive perception of reality.

My misinterpretation.

Old Ygg

Jedi Mind Trick · 11-28-2006, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Cipriani

Nah. I'm comfortable with taking my chances that my loved ones will go to hell knowing there's a place to rectify the score for people like Stalin. A guy who legally murders 20 million people needs killing in a big way. Hell is that big way. When death just isn't just enough, hell is there fill in what is lacking. Amen. -- Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic Back from the Limbo of the Banned

So much for family values...

spamandham · 11-28-2006, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Logos,
Suddenly I heard the words "I'm going!...I'm going!...I'm going!" (repeated three times)...And then I saw the scene of my grandmother being young again and being welcomed by the love of her life, her second husband...My perspective was as a witness, from the side, about 50 feet away...

...

Coincidence?...I think not...

A false memory perhaps?

Albert Cipriani · 11-28-2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steamer

I understand the sentiment, I have an ex-wife.

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Has it occurred to you that Stalin could have converted and be in heaven all crimes forgiven? All he had to do is click his heels together three times and say oh god forgive me I'm sooooo sorry. Oh, never mnd, that's nothing like justice, is it?

To the contrary, Protestants believe in those legalistic word-games, not I. Saying you're sorry is nothing like being sorry. To humble one's self to the point of being sorry is heady stuff, something that's about as rare as diamonds. So yeah, if Stalin (or even your x-wife) could work up a head of steam to propell him down the path of sorrow, I'd be fine with him dodging damnation... but only after eons of suffering in Purgatory, another detail Protestants ignore.

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Here's another thought for you. Whatever was wrong with Stalin, an all poweful god could fix it like a broken toy. Why does he punish instead?

Human's are not toys in need of being fixed, or puzzles that need to be solved. We are free beings that freely choose to be broken and irrational. God's job description is not Maintenance Man of the human race. And He doesn't punish us, rather, the choices we make punish us, especially after we are dead and can clearly see how paltry we are and therefore how ridiculous was our selfish choice of ourselves over God. That's the major torture, seeing more clearly than we can see now through a glass darkly how piggish we are and how glorious we could have become. -- Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic

espritch · 11-28-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Cipriani

I'd be fine with him dodging damnation... but only after eons of suffering in Purgatory, another detail Protestants ignore.

Now let's see. Which book in the Bible talked about Purgatory? Was it the same one that discussed Limbo?

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