Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: What exactly is your intention in this thread? If your intention is to reasonably prove that God is willing that some will perish, I agree with you, so what else would you like to discuss? How about starting a new thread and tell non-Christians why they should become Christians?

rhutchin

I guess if you let people live long enough to figure it out, all would become Christians. Given that time is limited, a person should be prudent and decide early.

The elephant in the room that you are ignoring is this "free will" thingy. People who hear the gospel are free to reject the gospel. People who have kids are free to keep them from hearing the gospel. People use the freedom that God gives them to screw themselves and others. That's life.

OK. However, a a person can still be held accountable for his actions even if he does not know how to escape the punishment for those actions.

Nope. My purpose is to make sure people understand what the Bible says so that they can make a good decision regarding their life. Why would anyone want to lie to a homosexual unless he hated the homosexual. Tell the sexual immoral the truth and let them decide what they want to do.

Johnny Skeptic

The point is that God deliberately withholds information from some people who would accept it if they were aware of it. If God clearly revealed himself to everyone, no man could complain that he did not have adequate information, in which case no man would have any excuses. As it is, on judgment day, any man who has never heard the Gospel message who Jesus chooses to send to hell can rightly say that the rules were not clearly disclosed. In addition, on judgment day, any man who has heard the Gospel message and rejected it, and would have accepted it if he had had more information, can rightly say that he was treated unfairly.

Regarding “a person can still be held accountable for his actions even if he does not know how to escape the punishment for those actions”, upon what evidence do you base this assertion, and what standards of judgment will God use? If good morals are the standards, many non-Christians have good morals. For instance, in the first century, a time when most Christians endorsed slavery, some Sophists and Stoics opposed it. In addition, Buddha gave the world a version of the Golden Rule centuries before Christ. The Bible does not teach that good morals can save anyone. Romans 5:12 says “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”.

If God is not willing that any of as you say “the elect” will perish, if the elect all know the risks if they reject Christianity, if God will accept some people who do not know the risks based upon their morals, doesn’t that mean that he is not willing that some people other than the elect will perish?

Even if everyone knew the risks, it is not possible for decent people to accept the God of the Bible. God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11, with no apparent of stated benefits to himself or anyone else. God punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, with no apparent of stated benefits to himself or anyone else. God injures and kills people with hurricanes, with no apparent of stated benefits to himself or anyone else. During the U.S. Civil War, God stood idly by and allowed Christian to kill Christian, and brother to kill brother, with no apparent of stated benefits to himself or anyone else. God discriminates against amputees. James says that if a man refuses to feed hungry people that he is vain, and that his faith is dead. During the Irish Potato Famine alone, one million people die of starvation because God refused to provide them with food, with no apparent of stated benefits to himself or anyone else. Most of those people were Christians. If feeding hungry people is a worthy goal, it is a worthy goal for mankind and for God.

If you believed that God told lies, you would not be able to love him, and yet you ask people to accept a God who has committed numerous atrocities against humanity that are much worse than lying is. I have used this argument many times at this forum, and at the EofG forum, but you have always conveniently refused to reply to it.

Paul says that it is not surprising that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, but there is no credible evidence that Paul could have known whether or not Satan masquerades an angel of light, or whether or not God masquerades an angel of light. The odds are no better than even that God is who the Bible says he is. Jesus said in order for a man to become saved, he must love God with all of his heart, soul, and mind. Logically, a commitment like that is not possible based upon no better than even odds.

You said that you have evidence that today, all tangible benefits are not distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics. Where is your evidence?

Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: There is a new thread on Pascal's Wager. Have you made any posts in that thread? I assume that Pascal's Wager is one of your favorite arguments, if not your favorite argument. You have sure spent a lot of time debating it, but to no avail.

Gamera

The problem here is you're assuming there are facts without interpretation That's epistomologically impossible. There are no bare facts. Facts are moments of interpretation. Thus, the "facts" we see in the frame of the video are already interpreted for us by virtue of the fram, and hence not "historical" in the naive sense.

The point is there are no "historical" texts vs. "nonhistorical" texts. There are texts, which all have agendas and were written to persuade. It's an illusion to put historical texts in one category and the Christian scriptures in the other. The skeptics need to be less naive in critiquing those texts.

Gamera

I'm not assuming it, I'm just interpreting the plain language of the texts that I"m following, and in them Jesus says go out and preach the gospel to everyone. I don't think that language is subject to much misinterpretation.

Again, I know nothing about God. I have a text that has meaning. I don't have God in my living room.

Angra Mainyu

Text 1: “Gamera posted post #425 in this thread”

Text 2: “A 30-meters long dragon flew over my car this morning, and almost made me crash.”

Would you put text 1 and text 2 in the same category, when it comes to factual accuracy?

As I see it, people have a view of the world – a theory, if you like -, that may or may not be explicit, but requires facts, as the word is usually understood. From science to criminal justice to civil justice, facts are everywhere.

Without that, we can’t even say that text 1 is true (factually), and text 2 is not – but would you not say so?

Regarding the Gospel, you may be making a factual claim – namely, the existence of Jesus, as a God. If you are not, could you clarify that, please?

Does Jesus exist – as a being that can affect the world as you and I can, only to an infinitely greater extent -, or not?

I’m going back to a point you previously made, because I think it relates to all this:
If every text is contradictory, then your posts are contradictory, and so are mine, etc.
That seems to rule out logic. But if you rule out logic, then making sense of the world wouldn’t appear to be possible (how do you have science without logic?).

Also, if logic cannot be used, how can we even debate this?
Are you not trying to use logic in your arguments?

Johnny Skeptic

If it is God’s position that preaching the gospel is a worthy and beneficial goal, he most certainly would not leave it all up to humans. He would be involved in preaching the gospel himself. He would not deliberately withhold it from people. Consider the following: Saving people from drowning at a beach is a worthy and beneficial goal. The mayor of a city has entrusted that goal to lifeguards at Beach A. The mayor shows up at Beach A to go swimming. Someone is drowning. No lifeguard is nearby. The major saves the drowning person himself because he knows that saving lives is a worthy and beneficial goal. No loving human would stand idly by a let a person drown if he was able to save him. No loving God would deliberately withhold the gospel message from people and tell his followers to preach the very same message that he refuses to preach. No amount of human effort could ever let everyone know about the gospel message. Regarding the spread of the gospel message in the first century, why do you believe that God discriminated against people who did not live in close proximity to the Middle East? Why do you believe that God discriminates against amputees? He sometimes heals people of cancer, right? Or, does he allow the world to run all by itself? How and why do you suppose that Hurricane Katrina went to New Orleans?

But my question was about back then, not now. Why was additional tangible evidence necessary or desirable back then even after the Holy Spirit came to the church?

Don’t you mean that the writer of John said that Jesus said that? Have you become an inerrantist? If John actually wrote that, how do you suppose that he acquired that information? John never claims to be an eyewitnesses to anything, nor do any of the other Gospel writers.

Don’t know, don’t care? My word, 2 Timothy 3:16 says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” In the NIV, Paul says that it is not surprising that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and that his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. The KJV mentions the words “Devil” and “Satan” 104 times. The majority of the references are in the New Testament, and yet you claim that you don’t care. Regarding life after death, there is no doubt whatsoever that the Bible says that life after death is the most important goal of Christians. Consider the following:

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (KJV)

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (KJV)

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (KJV)

Matthew 8:11-12

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15:12-19

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. (KJV)

Romans 8:17-19

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (KJV)

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us. (KJV)

Hebrews 11:24-25

24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.

25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time.

26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. (NIV)

1 Peter 2: 3-7 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you,

5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

7 These have come so that your faith - of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire - may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (NIV)

Revelation 21:2-4

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (KJV)

http://wbsa.logos.com/article.asp?id=3589

The Physical Heavens:

Gen. 1:1 Job 37:18; Psa. 33:6; 136:5; Jer. 10:12.
Psa. 19:1
Psa. 50:6
Psa. 68:33
Psa. 89:29
Psa. 97:6
Psa. 103:11
Psa. 113:4
Psa. 115:16
Jer. 31:37
Ezek. 1:1
Matt. 24:29,30
Acts 2:19,20 See Sub-topics, below. Physical Heavens, Creation of:
Gen. 1:1
Gen. 2:1
1 Chr. 16:26
2 Chr. 2:12
Neh. 9:6
Job 9:8
Psa. 8:3
Psa. 19:1
Psa. 33:6,9
Psa. 148:4-6
Prov. 8:27
Isa. 37:16
Isa. 40:22
Isa. 42:5 Isa. 45:18.
Isa. 45:12
Jer. 10:12
Jer. 32:17
Jer. 51:15
Acts 4:24 Acts 14:15.
Heb. 1:10
Rev. 10:6
Rev. 14:7 See Heavens, New. See Creation; God, Creator. Physical Heavens, Destruction of:
Job 14:12
Psa. 102:25,26
Isa. 34:4
Isa. 51:6
Matt. 5:18
Matt. 24:35
Heb. 1:10-12
2 Pet. 3:10,12
Rev. 6:12-14
Rev. 20:11
Rev. 21:1,4

I am talking about God, not humans. If preventing people from starving to death is a worthy and beneficial goal, God most certainly would not leave it all up to humans. He would be involved in preventing people from starving to death himself. He would not tell believers via James that if a man refuses to feed hungry people that he is vain and his faith is dead and deliberately withhold food from starving people.

We have laws against negligence. Surely you approve of those laws. God is negligent, but you approve of his negligence. Why is that?

It definitely matters. Human nature being what it is, if Jesus returned to earth and healed all of the sick people in the world, something that Christian doctors are trying to do, surely some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. Historically, many people have accepted outlandish claims based upon much less evidence.

If it doesn’t matter, why should anyone become a Christian? If being loving in this life is all that you are concerned about, as long as non-Christians are loving, isn’t that sufficient for you? A person can certainly be loving, healthy, happy, and well-adjusted without hearing the gospel message. The gospel message has not been around for the majority of human history, so obviously, God doesn’t really consider it to be that important.

You need reasonable evidence, not maybes. A person must hear the gospel before he can preach the gospel.

rhutchin

I think we are into a semantic disagreement. A person can define an "historical" text as that which was produced in the past. The Declaration of Indepenence is an historical text. In a sense, all texts are historical. The words I am writing are historical immediately after I write them. So, we have texts, but people tend to undertand that the adjective, "historical," is used to identify a text with a prior event in history.

We can have bare facts without interpretation. I can look across the room and see a book on the table and think nothing more about it. It is a bare fact that there is a book on the table. If someone comes in and asks, "What book is on the table?" then I begin to speculate about that book based on its size, my previous experience with the book, the title on the side of the book, or any other information that I have and begin to process. It is true that two different people can look at the same book and conclude different things about that book based on the information available to them. However, regardless of what a person thinks about the book, the bare fact is that it is a book (or if you want, an object visable to the eye that a person has interpreted to be a book) on the table. The bare fact is that there is something on the table (i.e., it is not imagined). Without "bare facts" we could not have moments of interpretation.

I think we can separate bare facts from the interpretation of those facts and you say we can't. Who cares? The issue here is not the facts (whether bare or intepreted), but that it is possible for each person to have his own personal interpretation of the facts and those interpretations can all differ. Nonetheless, there exists at least one interpretation of a "fact" that is truth.

rhutchin

If God revealed Himself in the manner you are describing, then everyone would obviously become a Christian. So, we can conclude that God has no intent to save all people (which does not mean that God is not willing for all to be saved). God has provided sufficient information to people for all to be saved. That information has been entrusted to the likes of JohnnySkeptic to disperse. If JohnnySkeptic shares the information, people will becomes Christians who would not otherwise. That is the system that God has established. God has given JohnnySkeptic the freedom to tell others about the Bible and what it says or to withhold it from people.

Regardless, people are judged on the basis of their sin. If a person has sinned, he can be fairly excluded from heaven and he has no complaint. He might complain that JohnnySkeptic did not tell him that there was a way to enter heaven despite his sin and even complain that God should have intervened when He saw that JohnnySkeptic hated him and would not give him this information. However, the person could not say that he had not sinned or that God was unfair to refuse entry into heaven to those who had sinned.

The rule God has established (as a person can read in the Bible) is that one sin is sufficient to exclude a person from heaven. No moral good done by the person can erase or undo the sin. Moral good cannot provide compensation for sin. Sin, once committed, engenders a consequence and that consequence is that it excludes a person from heaven.

God does not accept any people based on their morals. The Bible even says that there are no such people (All have sinned, the heart is deceitful and desparately wicked, there is none good, etc.). I don't know where you are coming from here.

Then that is the decision that a person makes.

OK. However, I don't believe that God has lied. I don't believe that God has committed atrocities. I think that those who do believe those things have not understood what they have read (even assuming that they have actually read the Bible).

What is there to reply to?

People are free to believe what they want to believe. Aren't they?

Commitments are possible no matter what the odds. Every person in the world has made a commitment to something regarding that which happens after death.

I have financial resources that others do not have. Certainly, wealth is not distributed randomly.