DCHindley

Aren't the books of Antiquities that deal with early Hebrew history generally considered a retelling of the biblical story, sort of like that found in Jubilees?

DCH

spamandham

Yes, they are, but that isn't the same as one story being constructed from another. In the case of the Gospels, they are not obviously a retelling of Jewish scriptures, but they do appear to be in large part constructed from bits and pieces of the Jewish scriptures.



_{heh, could that be what Jesus really meant when he talked about rebuilding the temple? Did the author leave us an easter egg?}

paarsurrey

Hi

Quran confirms existence of Jesus otherwise there is no historical evidence of Jesus in my opinion. I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

Thanks

spamandham

The Qur'an was written no earlier than the 7th century. It's irrelavent in regard to the historicity of Jesus.

Gamera

I don't know that an "historian's" beleif in omen (and worse injecting himself into history with a claim that he, the historian, was prophetic and interpreted God's word correctly vis a vis the rise of an emperor (who then let him free), is any more outlandish than a story about healings and turning wine to water.

Frankly, I find the latter innocuous, and no more than pious legends that often attach to historical figures. The former goes to the very heart of being an historian (a prophetic historian is almost a contradiction in terms!)

spamandham

I think I agree.

The point on Josephus is not in regard to the assessment of absurdity in the outlandish claims he makes, but the mere quantity of them as a fraction of his writings....and I'm excluding Antiquities, since that's just his summary of the Jewish scriptures and not purported to be contemporary.

Ben C Smith

I suspect that, by the same standards the gospels are held to be constructed from the scriptures, so too a lot more of Josephus than is commonly realized could be held to be constructed from the scriptures. The main difference is that fewer interested parties pore over Josephus looking for those OT parallels compared to the many who do so for the gospels.

Take the Theudas incident, for example (Antiquities 20.5.1 §97-99, English translation slightly modified from Whitson):

Now it came to pass while Fadus was procurator of Judea that a certain enchanter, whose name was Theudas, persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them and follow him to the river Jordan, for he told them that he was a prophet, and that he would by his own command divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them, who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what befell the Jews in the time of the leadership of Cuspius Fadus.

Most of this story echoes OT events and themes. That Theudas called himself a prophet, but was actually a fraud, resembles Deuteronomy 18.15-22. Fadus taking the head of Theudas to Jerusalem is a match for David taking the head of Goliath to Jerusalem in 1 Samuel 17.54. The whole theme of dividing the river Jordan is of course parallel to the Israelites under Joshua.

Furthermore, the bit about taking many alive and slaying others is so common in Josephus as to qualify as Josephan redaction, and Theudas (like all the other charlatans that Josephus mentions as a sort of fourth philosophy) certainly fulfills an important role for Josephus, serving as a scapegoat for the Judeo-Roman hostilities to follow.

Is the Theudas incident modelled on these OT passages and guided by these Josephan concerns? If so, is it outright fiction? If not, what does this do to a lot of the NT parallels?

Ben.

Gamera

I certainly wouldn't disagree with you that the gospels contain more miracles and wonders relating to Jesus' life than one typically finds in the more sober texts of Tacitus or Josephus. I think the reasons for that are many, but I don't know if they undermine the historicity of Jesus. I suspect that religious figures generally tend to attract more flamboyant legendary material than emperors and soldiers, and there appears to be similar developments along these lines involving mystics and religious founders thoughout history: Mohammad and St. Patrick and Joseph Smith, etc.

spamandham

As was pointed out by another poster above, Antiquities is heavily based on the Jewish scriptures. I overgeneralized in the comment you referenced.

You may well be right on your point. If the same microscope were applied to say, The Jewish Wars, as has been to the Gospels, perspectives might well be different.

It may be outright fiction, it might be legend, it might be myth, or some combination. I haven't dug into this story enough to make an assessment. But assuming your analysis is solid, it means this story suffers the same problem as the Gospels (I'm focused on the Gospels right now), which is that we know the story as it stands simply isn't true, but we don't know whether or not there is a historical core.

However, the assumption that there is a historical core is unsupportable, and an unnecessary complication for this Theudas story (unless there is sufficient external evidence for some part of it). The same holds true for the Gospels. The proper starting point is "we don't know. so let's find out if there is a historical core" rather than "let's figure out what the historical core is".

-again, under the assumptions that your analysis is correct on this story, and that there is no external corroboration of parts of it.

If we can identify Josephus' motives for his various asunder stories, I think it's legitimate to assume that any story for which he would have a dishonorable motive, is probably not even close to being accurate. Is that reasonable?

Ben C Smith

Yes, but you made a distinction between retelling the stories of the scriptures in their original settings and reusing the scriptures to tell new stories in more contemporary settings.

Ben.