Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 01-25-2012, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I also don't understand it but that's the party line involving Mary. Of course in GMark there is no statement of how Mary got pregnant, but evidently the passing comment about her would reject the belief that Jesus dropped down as a docetic being.

However I wonder why the Christians were so invested in him having a mother and perhaps being "half" docetic at least with a physical body before the christological doctrine emerged.

But that's what we have with Mary. A being existing in a physical body.

You must have noticed that the author of gMark did NOT ever state that Mary was the mother of Jesus.

The author merely ASKED QUESTIONS that he never did answer.

Mark 6:3 KJV

Quote:

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary , the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

The author asked questions that he NEVER answered.

But, Origen will state that Jesus NOT known to be a carpenter in any current Gospel of the Church.

Against Celsus 7

Quote:

... in none of the Gospels current in the Churches is Jesus Himself ever described as being a carpenter.

Based on Origen, gMark's Mary may be the mother of some other Jesus. There was no Jesus described as a carpenter in any Gospel during the time of Origen.

But, now Jesus did NOT even recognise Mary as his mother in gMark.

Acts 3

Quote:

. 32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold , thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

33 And he answered them, saying , Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said , Behold my mother and my brethren! 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Jesus was NOT known as a carpenter up to the 3rd century and he did NOT recognise Mary as his mother in gMark.

There is NO statement in gMark that eliminates his Jesus from being based on Docetism.

sotto voce · 01-26-2012, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

The entire point of the Gospels was that Jesus was human. All his suffering, crucifixion, death, etc are completely meaningless if you view him as a god instead of as a man.

On the contrary. His suffering, crucifixion, death, etc. are completely meaningless if viewed as only a man, because the Romans crucified thousands of people like Jesus, two of them with him. The death of Jesus that counts, if anything about him counts, is not his physical death at all, but the spiritual death he experienced as punishment for the evil deeds and thoughts of everyone else. This is, as is believed, why he cried out that he had been forsaken. This may be why he died physically before death was expected.

Jesus had to be tested 'in every way as we are' and yet never commit a sin. And the temptation to sin had to be as real as it is for us. So he had to be as human as we are, with no advantages. If Jesus was any less than perfect, then nobody's conscience can be perfected, can be salved, and there can be no salvation for anyone. In the biblical context, of course. As, in that context, there is only one who is perfect, the deity, Jesus must be the deity. Jesus is either as significant as the nameless thieves between whom he was crucified, or he is the God and saviour of all. Nothing between.

If he's a god, then the suffering means nothing, because he's just playing with the Romans as little toys. It's like having my four year old punch my knee and I pretend to be hurt - it's just me being silly. None of the suffering is real and he doesn't actually go through any trials or anything. It's a pointless dog-and-pony show and honouring him for it is like honouring Hercules for winning an arm-wrestling match with an eight year old girl.

So how is it that 'Hercules' lost? How did the great hero end up crucified between two thieves? A game that got a bit out of control, eh?

Now had Jesus booted the Romans out of Palestine and out of everywhere else, made a palace coup in Rome and put the emperor's head on a pole, that would make sense as deity playing with Romans. Just for a giggle.

Huon · 01-26-2012, 03:15 AM

Duvduv, you could have a look at Anomoeans, and at Arians.

Doug Shaver · 01-26-2012, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

...Trying to make sense of aa's thinking is a waste of time.

You don't make much sense.

On this particular issue, neither your opinion more mine is determinative. I have no problem letting the readers figure out which is us is making some sense.

Tom Sawyer · 01-26-2012, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

So how is it that 'Hercules' lost? How did the great hero end up crucified between two thieves? A game that got a bit out of control, eh?

No. In the given example, Hercules beat an eight year old girl at arm wrestling. Full stop. The action is that irrelevant - sort of like if an omnipotent god decided to pretend that some creatures who were barely a step above bacteria were able to crucify him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Now had Jesus booted the Romans out of Palestine and out of everywhere else, made a palace coup in Rome and put the emperor's head on a pole, that would make sense as deity playing with Romans. Just for a giggle.

Yes, that would have been just as easy. When I'm playing at fighting with my four year old, I can pretend that he's hurting me or I can grab his arms and stop him from punching or I can ignore him completely and have a conversation with my wife, depending on my mood at the moment. The point is that I'm not actually suffering from his attack anymore than Jesus was actually suffering from anything that the Romans did to him. He was just pretending and wasn't actually put out any by the events.

sotto voce · 01-26-2012, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

So how is it that 'Hercules' lost? How did the great hero end up crucified between two thieves? A game that got a bit out of control, eh?

No. In the given example, Hercules beat an eight year old girl at arm wrestling. Full stop.

It's not an example, it's an attempt at analogy. But its not a successful one, because it is in flat contradiction of what actually occurred (according to the texts, of course). This is a circular argument.

If the suffering was real (and merely stating otherwise is no evidence that it was not), then the opportunity arises for human beings whose consciences are of concern to them to have those consciences cleared. People can take it, or leave it. After all, according to the texts, Jesus said that he came for 'the sick', i.e. those who were concerned in this way, and not for 'the healthy', who had no concern about bad conscience.

Any who make the smallest attempt to obscure by irrational means the offer apparently made thereby admit that they have bad conscience.

Tom Sawyer · 01-26-2012, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

No. In the given example, Hercules beat an eight year old girl at arm wrestling. Full stop.

It's not an example, it's an attempt at analogy. But its not a successful one, because it is in flat contradiction of what actually occurred (according to the texts, of course). This is a circular argument.

If the suffering was real (and merely stating otherwise is no evidence that it was not), then the opportunity arises for human beings whose consciences are of concern to them to have those consciences cleared. People can take it, or leave it. After all, according to the texts, Jesus said that he came for 'the sick', i.e. those who were concerned in this way, and not for 'the healthy', who had no concern about bad conscience.

Any who make the smallest attempt to obscure by irrational means the offer apparently made thereby admit that they have bad conscience.

Yes, it is an attempt at analogy. The analogy is that an empire full of Roman soldiers has as much of a fighting chance against Jesus as an eight year old girl has in an arm wrestling contest against Hercules. Now, Hercules can pretend to let the little girl win, just like Jesus can pretend to let the Romans beat and crucify him, but neither of their opponents are actually doing that.

Drawing some sort of moral lesson from Jesus playing with the Romans and pretending to let them hurt him is as silly as drawing some sort of moral lesson about how a young girl's belief in herself let her become stronger than Hercules or some such tripe. That's not actually what happened, so it's invalid to base a moral lesson on it. Jesus didn't actually suffer, so there's nothing to be learned from his suffering.

Chili · 01-26-2012, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Docetists believed that Jesus only appeared to be a human, but was actually something like ectoplasm.

If Jesus was "born of a woman" he was considered to be human.

Not sure if "born of woman" equals 'born of a woman' since woman was taken from man and never banned from Eden but was taken to be his dowry in betrothal and 'be' the heart of man and until then 'the law' is the heart of the mythology for humans sojourning.
'
Following this, woman is opposite to human and to be 'born of woman' does not mean 'born of a female' with just a 'woman touch' about her. The woman is 'sacred' here and the Ideal of every love story.

sotto voce · 01-26-2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

No. In the given example, Hercules beat an eight year old girl at arm wrestling. Full stop.

It's not an example, it's an attempt at analogy. But its not a successful one, because it is in flat contradiction of what actually occurred (according to the texts, of course). This is a circular argument.

If the suffering was real (and merely stating otherwise is no evidence that it was not), then the opportunity arises for human beings whose consciences are of concern to them to have those consciences cleared. People can take it, or leave it. After all, according to the texts, Jesus said that he came for 'the sick', i.e. those who were concerned in this way, and not for 'the healthy', who had no concern about bad conscience.

Any who make the smallest attempt to obscure by irrational means the offer apparently made thereby admit that they have bad conscience.

Yes, it is an attempt at analogy. The analogy is that an empire full of Roman soldiers has as much of a fighting chance against Jesus as an eight year old girl has in an arm wrestling contest against Hercules.

But Hercules doesn't end up on a cross.

Some eight-year-old.

Chili · 01-26-2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

BUT the angels or Satan are not born to human mothers as Jesus is in the nativity and apologetica!!!!

But Mary was a not a 'human mother' but the 'womanity' (archaic word) of Jesus personified wherein he was the heart of Christ that carried the 'humanity' (popular today) of Joseph towards the grand convergeance of the twain (hypostatic union) and for that he needed to die and easy could as just an -ity personified as well.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-26-2012, 03:15 AM	#33
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Duvduv, you could have a look at Anomoeans, and at Arians.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.