Harlander

Do you think you could provide chapter and verse citations that describe a mechanism for this? Or at least, somewhere it says "Jesus' body will leave an image of itself on whatever it's contained in when resurrected"?

Orthodox_Freethinker

Could you provide a better explanation as to how the Shroud of Turin could be an X-ray image?

Peace.

ed45

The National Geographic Channel had a program several months ago (and recently repeated) regarding the Shroud and Leonardo DeVinci. Near the end, evidence was presented that suggested that the image on the Shroud was a photograph. The person being interviewed presented how it could be done with materials available at the time (middle ages).

ed45

Harlander

I don't think I need to, simply because it doesn't appear to be an x-ray image to me. I went scrounging about on the net for a big picture of the Shroud (harder to find than I expected) but looking at it, it shows flesh, not a skeleton with a paler outline, as you'd expect from an x-ray. (Well, as I'd expect from an X-ray photograph at least).

Orthodox_Freethinker

The image of the Shroud shows the teeth and finger bones of Christ.

Peace.

Orthodox_Freethinker

Could these supposed photographic techniques have produced an X-ray image?

Peace.

Harlander

I don't see teeth and finger bones.. even on the biggest picture I found, it's fleshy fingers... as for the teeth, all you've got under what appears to be quite a fearsome moustache is an oval-ish dark patch that doesn't convincingly resemble much at all...

Furthermore, if an x-ray-like effect produced the image, why would only the teeth and fingerbones show, and not the rest of the skeleton?

Also, what about that bit in the Gospel according to John, chapter 20, where it describes a seperate cloth covering Jesus' head, not a single cloth like the Shroud? I don't set much score by the Gospels myself, but you seem to...

*returns, Columbo-esque*

Just one more thing... what about Pope Clement VII's pronouncement that the Shroud was inauthentic? Even the Catholic Encyclopedia says it's probably not really the shroud that wrapped Jesus.. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13762a.htm

ed45

If I remember correctly, the question of the image being the result of "radiation" was shown to be false.

ed45

Sarpedon

I've had about enought of this.

Here is an image of the shroud. Orthodox Freethinker, would you please point out where Jesus' teeth are shown:

Here's one of the hands. Its true that the fingers seem a little thin here, but the finger bones are no more than those of a skinny person's...even with flesh still attached.



Finally, if what you say about the shroud being "proof" of Jesus' resurrection, doesn't that invalidate your thesis at the beginning of the thread: "Divine Hiddenness Makes Faith Possible?"

Think.

Orthodox_Freethinker

By those who offhandedly rule out such a possibility?

"STURP findings, published in 1981, contain the following results:

"No pigments, paints, dyes, or stains have been found on the fibrils. X-ray fluorescence and microchemistry preclude the possibility of paint being used as a method for creating the image."
"It is clear that there has been a direct contact of the Shroud with the body, which explains certain features such as the scourge marks, as well as the blood. However, while this type of contact might explain some features of the torso, it is totally incapable of explaining the image...there are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image..."
"We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and give a positive test for serum albumin."
http://www.shroud2000.com/FastFacts.html


The Resurrection of the Shroud of Turin
by Alan D. Whanger, M.D.

"Most remarkably, studies on the image fibers on the Shroud itself have shown that the image is due to a physical/chemical change in the surface of the fibers themselves, and that there are no pigments, dyes, or stains (other than the obvious blood) to account for the image. Detailed studies on the body image, and of the many non-body objects whose images have been identified on the Shroud, such as the coins over the eyes, the phylacteries or Jewish prayer boxes, the crucifixion nails, the Roman spear, and the hundreds of flowers, indicate that the visible images were formed in part by electron corona, which is a high voltage electrical current which flows over the surface of objects and is discharged from irregularities and high points on the objects. More recent studies of the three-dimensional images produced by superimposing the positive and negative photographs on top of one another show that the underlying skeletal system of the hands, wrists, skull and teeth can be clearly seen on the Shroud. This indicates that the image is in part an auto radiograph; i.e., soft X-rays came vertically from the depths of every portion of the body and combined with the coronal images from the surface to produce the body image that we see on the Shroud.

The image is that of a muscular Jewish male, about five feet eleven inches to all, weighing about 170 pounds, about age 35, whose body is in cadaveric spasm (a type of near instantaneous rigor mortis occurring in those severely traumatized), and who has a spear wound through the right chest into the heart with a post mortem flow of blood and serum from the wound. The appearance of the blood clots shows that the body disappeared from within the Shroud without the cloth being unwrapped. The appearance of the blood clots and the body, as well as the images of the flowers, indicates that this event took place between 24 and 36 hours after death.

Attempts to date the Shroud to the middle ages are absurd, as there are identifiable images of two Jewish coins, the 'leptons' or widow's mites of Pontius Pilate, one over each eye. Both coins were struck in A.D. 29. Eusebius, the early Church historian, dates the transfer of an object (the Shroud, which was rolled and mounted in a frame so that only the face showed) from Jerusalem to King Abgar in Edessa in A.D. 30. There are statues of various divinities in the Middle East which are clearly influenced by the Shroud face 8 mm. high on a Byzantine coin struck in A D. 692 and showing about 180 points of congruence between the coin image and the Shroud. This shows clearly that the die cutters and iconographers were copying their images directly from the Shroud, and that they considered the image to be of divine origin and to be that of Jesus.

Attempts to localize the origin of the Shroud to Europe equally fail. We feel we have identified with reasonable certainty the images of 28 flowers and thorns on the Shroud, twenty of which grow in Jerusalem, and the other eight within 12 miles of Jerusalem. Most do not grow in Europe at all. Pollens of twenty-five of these species had been previously and independently identified by Dr. Max, a noted Swiss criminalist and botanist, from sticky tape slides that he took from the Shroud in 1973 and 1978. Their common blooming time is March and April."
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/art/ART9804.html

Peace.