Earl IV

Perhaps god just magically transported them to Alaska for a "daytrip"

Chili

that should read 'mid-heaven' instead of midst of heaven because in heaven the sun is not or is redundant and not the 'giver' of light (Rev.22:5).

Chili

. . . which then is why we have eternal life in the woman who is the heart of Christ in Christendom and the centre of our universe and we call her Mary with us being the Christ as Christian.

semiopen

If I understand this (and I'm pretty sure I don't) that's a lot to read into what appears to be an offhand remark in a book which is not noted for its profundity.

This miracle itself is placed at an insignificant battle that almost undoubtedly never happened.

Couldn't one make the same exegesis from a Dylan song?

Chili

Sorry I never read the OT to agree or not agree with you but just wanted to express the idea that the essence of time is not related to the movement of the sun nor is the essence of light related to the sun.

Please understand that ligth 'was' before the sun was created [to find existence in our mind] and also that time 'was' before evening came and subsequently morning followed. So really it is a 'non cause' argument to say 'let there be lights in the dome' when 'all was light' as if we needed them and it might have been better to say that we should make wheels round to resemble that sun so they could move better, but he didn't, obviously not and likely because he thought we would know the difference between round and flat and light and dark.

PhilosopherJay

Hi semiopen,

In "a Hard Rain is Gonna fall,"

Bob Dylan says, "I Heard The Roar of a Wave That Could Drown the Whole World"

This seems to me to be a miracle on the order of Yaweh stopping the sun.
The size of a wave that could drown the whole world must have been enormous and if Bob Dylan heard such a wave, it is quite amazing that his hearing was not damaged. At the 150 decibel level one can expect severe ear damage. The loudest sound possible in air is 194 decibels. Sound Energy turns into heat at this point. A wave able to drown the whole world would certainly have a sound level well above 150 decibels.

To explain this one might suppose:

1) He was in a specially designed sound room, made to withstand the decibel level.

2) He was far from the wave and the noise dissipated by the time it reached him.

3) He has supernatural powers to withstand such noise.

The correct answer is that he was speaking metaphorically. He did not, in fact, hear such a wave.

In the case of the Sun standing still, the writer had no idea about the modern laws of physics, or that the Earth actually goes around the sun.

The absurd and pseudo-scientific explanations that Christians make up are just more lies to cover up the lie that the text of the Bible has no supernatural properties and are as subject to the ability of writers to lie as any other text.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

mountainman

Hi Philosopher Jay,

Bob Dylan's lyrics make a good example.

The lyrics of Athanasius about "sun stopping" seem to be borrowed from the lyrics of Josephus who is recording the lyrics of Marc Anthony, in lament over the "sun stopping" event concerning the death of the Roman Emperor, Julius Caesar.

The lyrics of Athanasius somehow conflate the sun stopping event related to the death of Julius Caesar with the sun stopping event related to the death of Jesus Henry. Maybe these two JC's had the same nomina sacra? High profile performers like Athanasius cant be expected to be impressed by other lyrics in other songs in the millieu. As we know, Athanasius was instrumental in organising the first international "Top 40 Chart" for the New Testament Bible.

In any event these artists both portray the sun stopping as a "recall of sunshine" or "turning away of the light". The sun is Helios of course, who in the original lyrics of Marc Anthony is shown to exhibit a reaction to the death of the emperor by recalling his sunshine.

Athanasius's sun stopping lyrics seem expanded to allow for a much greater sun stopping event and an emotional reaction from Helios, the Sun, not at the death of the Roman Emperor Julius Caesar, but instead, the Jesus of the New Testament Songbook Series.

Athanasius's Four Discourses

But the sun, with greater horror,
impatient of the bodily contumelies,
which the common Lord of all voluntarily endured for us,
turned away, and recalling his rays
made that day sunless.

Here is what Josephus sings about that "sunless day".

Antiquities of the Jews - Book XIV, 12, 3

3. "Marcus Antonius, imperator, to Hyrcanus the high priest and ethnarch of the Jews, sendeth greeting.

It you be in health, it is well; I am also in health, with the army. Lysimachus, the son of Pausanias, and Josephus, the son of Menneus, and Alexander, the son of Theodorus, your ambassadors, met me at Ephesus, and have renewed the embassage which they had formerly been upon at Rome, and have diligently acquitted themselves of the present embassage, which thou and thy nation have intrusted to them, and have fully declared the goodwill thou hast for us. I am therefore satisfied, both by your actions and your words, that you are well-disposed to us; and I understand that your conduct of life is constant and religious: so I reckon upon you as our own.

But when those that were adversaries to you, and to the Roman people, abstained neither from cities nor temples, and did not observe the agreement they had confirmed by oath, it was not only on account of our contest with them, but on account of all mankind in common, that we have taken vengeance on those who have been the authors of great injustice towards men, and of great wickedness towards the gods; for the sake of which we suppose it was that the sun turned away his light from us, (23) as unwilling to view the horrid crime they were guilty of in the case of Caesar.

In the sun stopping world of Athanasius,
Jesus is compared to Julius Caesar.


It would appear that in all ages, as you say, that the absurd and pseudo-scientific explanations that Christians make up are just more lies to cover up the lie that the text of the Bible has no supernatural properties and are as subject to the ability of writers to lie as any other text.

The question in my mind, and perhaps answered by Momigliano, is in which precise year did the first christian choir get organised with their sacraments and hymnals; and who lead the band; and where was the gig performed; and who was in the audience; and whether refreshments were served before or after; what were these refreshments and who served them; and other inconsequential stuff like that.

Best wishes,


Pete

Toto

This is a different sun phenomenon, Pete. It's about the sun standing still in the sky, not hiding. Is there a connection?

semiopen

I think Chili was treating the sun stop as a metaphor, which is certainly possible. My major point is that the explanation seemed a little complicated.

Regarding Dylan, I got the idea that his lyrics were religious recently; there is prior academic literature on this, so I can't claim to have had an original thought.

My favorite verse is from Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again

In the 70s I thought Texas Medicine might be barbituates and Railroad Gin was speed. Dylan used rain to signify war; who the rainman is is anybody's guess. Chili might say Jesus.

My new interpretation is that rainman is a rabbi, like the Baal_Shem_Tov (probably there is a better example). Texas Medicine is the Talmud and Railroad Gin is Kabbalah. Dylan seems to be saying that the standard Jewish religious encouragement to deeply study both these areas is a mistake. "No sense of time" is a serious problem with Haredi Jews where oftentimes customs that are only a few centuries old are said to be unbelievably ancient, for example:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Haredi_Judaism

I hope people getting uglier needs no explanation.

Personally, I have no ego if someone wants to dispute this interpretation, but I wonder how my exegesis of Dylan compares with Chili's on the sun stop.

Chili

Sorry I do not know Dylan but I do believe that drugs can change our state of consciousnes but I am just pointing at the reality behind the metaphor and from there use their words as a way to express that awareness (if you like that word better). The fact is that light is not in the rays of the sun in the same way as time does not come from the clock.