Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 07-01-2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. Why should anyone believe that it was any different back then?

There are no miracles in the Christian Bible, only fictional accounts. If the main characters, God and His Son, are not known to exist, then they cannot perfom miracles. I ask you Johnny, how is it possible that an evil spirit can make a person dumb, deaf or dead? There is no medical evidence that a ghost can cause any health problems. No miracles happened back then. No wonder none happens today!

Mythra · 07-02-2006, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There are no miracles in the Christian Bible, only fictional accounts.

I agree completely. It was a different time back then. Jesus was not the only one purported to possess miraculous healing powers. Asclepius and Appolonius, among many others, were also legendary for their miraculous healings. It didn't take much to convince people back then in the Mediterranean world that miracles had happened. It was part of their overall thought process. Richard Carrier has a very good article on this site entitled "Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire". It's very illustrative into the mindset and gulliblity of the societies that lived then.

Miracles had to be written into the Jesus story, so that he could compete with the other gods for respect.

Why people still buy it today is anyone's guess. I suppose people see what they want to see when looking through the eyes of faith.

If today's "faith healers" want to do some real miracles, why don't they do one that's irrefutable - like asking God to grow a new limb on an amputee or something like that? Curing headaches aren't miracles.

Malachi151 · 07-02-2006, 08:12 AM

This is a very big deal, because Mark actually DID contain the "Lazarus story", but ti was later taken out. The story was not identical to the story found in John though.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/secretmark.html

Quote:

The first passage is a story of how Jesus miraculously raises a young man (neaniskos) who has recently died, at the behest of his bereaved sister. According to Clement, the story was added to Mark between verses 10:34 and 10:35. The story bears a striking resemblance to the raising of Lazarus in the Gospel of John (John 11:1-44). However, since it shows none of the typical marks of Johannine redaction which so strongly color the story about Lazarus, it is unlikely that the Secret Mark story is directly dependent upon its Johannine parallel. For its part, the version of the story from Secret Mark has its own peculiarities not found in John, such as the initiation of the young man into the "mystery of God's domain." The basic story, however, probably derives from the common stock of miracle stories available to both Mark and John, or their sources.

The second fragment is extremely brief, but nonetheless interesting. First, it mentions Salome, who appears in the New Testament elsewhere only in Mark (see 15:40; 16:1). Secondly, when placed in the slot where Clement indicates it occurs in Secret Mark (between 10:46a: "Then they came to Jericho," and 10:46b: "As he was leaving Jericho...") it fills a well-known hole in the Markan narrative. The stop in Jericho now seems, in light of the Secret Gospel, at least a little less futile.

From "Secret Mark":

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ecretmark.html

Quote:

"And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, 'Son of David, have mercy on me.' But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightaway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb, they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do, and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan."

from John:

Quote:

17On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18Bethany was less than two miles[a] from Jerusalem, 19and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

21"Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."

23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

...

33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34"Where have you laid him?" he asked.
"Come and see, Lord," they replied.

35Jesus wept.

36Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"

...

38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39"Take away the stone," he said.
"But, Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days."

40Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?"

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

pharoah · 07-02-2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

This is a very big deal, because Mark actually DID contain the "Lazarus story", but ti was later taken out. The story was not identical to the story found in John though.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/secretmark.html

From the above link:

Quote:

Although there has been some controversy over the letter, today it is generally agreed that the letter is authentic correspondence written by Clement. In his introduction in The Complete Gospels, Stephen Patterson notes: "The handwriting can be dated to around 1750. Smith published the letter in 1973. Early discussion of it was marred by accusations of forgery and fraud, no doubt owing in part to its controversial comments. Today, however, there is almost unanimous agreement among Clementine scholars that the letter is authentic."

Is there really almost unanimous agreement among scholars that Secret Mark is authentic? I thought that it was still a highly controversial issue, with most scholars leaning towards fraud.

aperfectstranger · 07-02-2006, 11:12 AM

He is supposed to have cured blindness too, people blind since birth. So first he makes them blind and then makes them see? :huh:

In any case, Jesus isn't the only one to perform all these deeds, from what I've been able to gather, his followers are also supposed to dazzle us.

Mark 16:17-18

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Imagine how easy it would have been for Christians to be more convincing if they could really perform these acts. Forget trying to piece together flimsy evidence from various disciplines, that would be enough, especially the healing of the sick. Any Christians here who can do any one of those things, let alone all of them?

Since we can't be dazzled with their brilliance, we have to be baffled with bull, it seems.

Magus55 · 07-02-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OliviaOh

He is supposed to have cured blindness too, people blind since birth. So first he makes them blind and then makes them see? :huh:

In any case, Jesus isn't the only one to perform all these deeds, from what I've been able to gather, his followers are also supposed to dazzle us.

Mark 16:17-18

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Imagine how easy it would have been for Christians to be more convincing if they could really perform these acts. Forget trying to piece together flimsy evidence from various disciplines, that would be enough, especially the healing of the sick. Any Christians here who can do any one of those things, let alone all of them?

Since we can't be dazzled with their brilliance, we have to be baffled with bull, it seems.

Those abilities were given to the Apostles, not every follower of Christ throughout history.

Magus55 · 07-02-2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There are no miracles in the Christian Bible, only fictional accounts. If the main characters, God and His Son, are not known to exist, then they cannot perfom miracles. I ask you Johnny, how is it possible that an evil spirit can make a person dumb, deaf or dead? There is no medical evidence that a ghost can cause any health problems. No miracles happened back then. No wonder none happens today!

Can you prove no miracles happened in the 1st Century or is this merely your opinion?

ChandraRama · 07-02-2006, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Can you prove no miracles happened in the 1st Century or is this merely your opinion?

The point of his post is ...
"There is no medical evidence that a ghost can cause any health problems. "

Mythra · 07-02-2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Those abilities were given to the Apostles, not every follower of Christ throughout history.

Really? Where does the text say that?

It says "these signs shall follow those that believe"

It says nothing about special apostles... It doesn't say "these signs shall follow some of the believers"..

Although - if you wanted to make the point that this ending of Mark is a later interpolation and not genuine - you'd have a better point.

Magus55 · 07-02-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChandraRama

The point of his post is ...
"There is no medical evidence that a ghost can cause any health problems. "

No, the point of all of his posts is to go on a tirade claiming for a fact that God doesn't exist, Jesus never existed, there were no miracles, etc. etc, despite providing nothing to back that assertion up. Most threads that i've been in, where he has participated, he has done nothing<edit>.

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07-02-2006, 11:12 AM	#15
aperfectstranger Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nomad Posts: 209	He is supposed to have cured blindness too, people blind since birth. So first he makes them blind and then makes them see? :huh: In any case, Jesus isn't the only one to perform all these deeds, from what I've been able to gather, his followers are also supposed to dazzle us. Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Imagine how easy it would have been for Christians to be more convincing if they could really perform these acts. Forget trying to piece together flimsy evidence from various disciplines, that would be enough, especially the healing of the sick. Any Christians here who can do any one of those things, let alone all of them? Since we can't be dazzled with their brilliance, we have to be baffled with bull, it seems.

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