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Originally Posted by la70119 Quote: Originally Posted by GakuseiDon That is also new to me. What is the evidence that the Emperors were deified at their funerals with their images fastened to cruciform tropaea, i.e., crosses? It's right there in Justin Martyr's I Apology. Quote: Originally Posted by Justin Martyr, I Apology 55 Chapter 55. Symbols of the cross. But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically. And this, as the prophet foretold, is the greatest symbol of His power and role; as is also proved by the things which fall under our observation. For consider all the things in the world, whether without this form they could be administered or have any community. For the sea is not traversed except that trophy which is called a sail abide safe in the ship; and the earth is not ploughed without it: diggers and mechanics do not their work, except with tools which have this shape. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross. And so it was said by the prophet, “The breath before our face is the Lord Christ.” And the power of this form is shown by your own symbols on what are called “vexilla” [banners] and trophies, with which all your state possessions are made, using these as the insignia of your power and government, even though you do so unwittingly. And with this form you consecrate the images of your emperors when they die, and you name them gods by inscriptions. Since, therefore, we have urged you both by reason and by an evident form, and to the utmost of our ability, we know that now we are blameless even though you disbelieve; for our part is done and finished. It's right there, in Justin Martyr's convenient little chapter.

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Originally Posted by la70119 Minucius Felix (Octavian 29) alludes to it and Tertullian states it plainly enough, even though not as obviously as Justin Martyr. Quote: Originally Posted by Minucius Felix, Octavian 29 Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners; and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses glided and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it.

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Originally Posted by la70119 Quote: Originally Posted by Tertullian, Apoligeticus 12.3 You put Christians on crosses and stakes: what image is not formed from the clay in the first instance, set on cross and stake? The body of your god is first consecrated on the gibbet.

You put Christians on crosses and stakes: what image is not formed from the clay in the first instance, set on cross and stake? The body of your god is first consecrated on the gibbet. You tear the sides of Christians with your claws; but in the case of your own gods, axes, and planes, and rasps are put to work more vigorously on every member of the body. We lay our heads upon the block; before the lead, and the glue, and the nails are put in requisition, your deities are headless. We are cast to the wild beasts, while you attach them to Bacchus, and Cybele, and Cælestis. We are burned in the flames; so, too, are they in their original lump. We are condemned to the mines; from these your gods originate.

As for him who affirms that we are "the priesthood of a cross," we shall claim him as our co-religionist. A cross is, in its material, a sign of wood; among yourselves also the object of worship is a wooden figure. Only, while with you the figure is a human one, with us the wood is its own figure. Never mind for the present what is the shape, provided the material is the same: the form, too, is of no importance, if so be it be the actual body of a god. If, however, there arises a question of difference on this point what, (let me ask,) is the difference between the Athenian Pallas, or the Pharian Ceres, and wood formed into a cross, when each is represented by a rough stock, without form, and by the merest rudiment of a statue of unformed wood? Every piece of timber which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam, of course, and its projecting seat. Now you have the less to excuse you, for you dedicate to religion only a mutilated imperfect piece of wood, while others consecrate to the sacred purpose a complete structure. The truth, however, after all is, that your religion is all cross, as I shall show. You are indeed unaware that your gods in their origin have proceeded from this hated cross. Now, every image, whether carved out of wood or stone, or molten in metal, or produced out of any other richer material, must needs have had plastic hands engaged in its formation. Well, then, this modeller, before he did anything else, hit upon the form of a wooden cross, because even our own body assumes as its natural position the latent and concealed outline of a cross. Since the head rises upwards, and the back takes a straight direction, and the shoulders project laterally, if you simply place a man with his arms and hands outstretched, you will make the general outline of a cross. Starting, then, from this rudimental form and prop, as it were, he applies a covering of clay, and so gradually completes the limbs, and forms the body, and covers the cross within with the shape which he meant to impress upon the clay; then from this design, with the help of compasses and leaden moulds, he has got all ready for his image which is to be brought out into marble, or clay, or whatever the material be of which he has determined to make his god. (This, then, is the process after the cross-shaped frame, the clay; after the clay, the god. In a well-understood routine, the cross passes into a god through the clayey medium. The cross then you consecrate, and from it the consecrated (deity) begins to derive his origin.

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Originally Posted by la70119 Quote: Originally Posted by GakuseiDon Here is his "Natural History" in English. I can't find anything in 8.18 or 8.20 (which seems to be about lions in the arena). Can you find the passage you mean? http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3Achapter%3D20 I can't readily find English translations of Seneca, so can't check the others unfortunately. It's supposed to be Book 8, Chapter 18, pgh. 47. Perseus lists it by books and chapters. LacusCurtius has the Latin Text, here. It's Historia Naturalis Liber VIII, scroll down to xviii.46 & 47. English Text of "crucified" (impaled) Lions at Perseus Digital Library here. CHAP. 18. THE DIFFERENT SPECIES OF LIONS.

CHAP. 18.—THE DIFFERENT SPECIES OF LIONS.

There are two species of lions; in the one the body is shorter and more compact, and the mane more crisp and curly;1 these are more timid than those with a longer body and straight hair, which, in fact, have no fear of wounds. The males raise the leg like the dog, when they pass their urine;2 which has a most disagreeable odour, the same being the case too with their breath. They seldom drink, and only take food every other day;3 when they have gorged themselves, they will sometimes go without food for three days. They swallow their food whole, without mastication, so far as they are able; and when they have taken more than the stomach can possibly receive, they extract part of it by thrusting their claws into the throat; the same too, if, when full, they have occasion to take to flight. That they are very long-lived is proved by the fact, that many of them are found without teeth. Polybius,4 the companion of Æmilianus, tells us, that when they become aged they will attack men, as they have no longer sufficient strength for the pursuit of wild beasts. It is then that they lay siege to the cities of Africa; and for this reason it was, that he, as well as Scipio, had seen some of them hung upon a cross; it being supposed that others, through dread of a similar punishment, might be deterred from committing the like outrages.

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Originally Posted by la70119 I need to get away from the 'puter for a while, I'll be back later. If I have to, I'll translate for you.