Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Crimson Glory · 02-04-2008, 12:05 AM

I was wondering why such a beautiful poem like the Song Of Songs was included in Ugly Bible. Was the presumed allegory of the romance between divinity and man or God and his people or Jesus and the Church the only reason for inclusion in the canon or was there something else? Sorry if the question is too amateur, but I looked around, even in Finkelstein and Silberman's "The Bible Unearthed", p.68, and only got this:

Quote:

The five scrolls known as the Megillot, or Canticles, were read in public at the great feasts, the Song of Solomon at Passover, Ruth at Pentecost, Ecclesiastes at Tabernacles, Esther at Purim and Lamentations at the feast of the Destruction of Jerusalem. They became popular in consequence, and that is why they were included in the canon. Apart from its association with a great king, the Song of Solomon is evidently an anthology of love poems, and there is no intrinsic reason for its inclusion. Rabbinical tradition says that at the Council of Jamnia or Jabneh, in the early Christian era, when the canon was finally determined, the Rabbi Akiva said: `For in all the world there is nothing to equal the day on which the Song of Songs was given to Israel, for all the writings are holy, but the Song of Songs is the Holy of Holies.' But he then added, as a warning: `He who, for the sake of entertainment, sings the song as though it were a profane song, will have no place in the next world.'

I want to know if there are other ideas or speculations about the inclusion.

mountainman · 02-04-2008, 04:16 AM

Have a look at Carl W. Ernst's page

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Ray Moscow · 02-04-2008, 06:24 AM

Robert Price (sorry, Jeffrey) thinks it's a remnant of Canaanite religions, probably for Tammuz-Adonis and Ishtar. It eventually was sufficiently depaganised enough to fit into the biblical canon and apparently popular enough to keep.

Crimson Glory · 02-04-2008, 06:52 AM

Very useful, mountainman, thank you.

By the way, is this text the preface or introduction to some edition of the Song Of Songs? Just couldn't get the reference.

Any other sources linking the poem with old Arabian and Egiptian wedding songs?

mountainman · 02-05-2008, 03:17 AM

I think it is the author Ernst making some interpretation
of the Song of Songs as expressions of love. There are
likely to be a number of translations.

I have no idea of its transmission history from our earliest
sources, but someone here may be able to advise you on
that. Quite often, the compiler of texts will throw in other
texts for the sake of their preservation.

One of my favorites is the "Hymn of the Pearl" which was
embedded by the author of the text "The Acts of Thomas"
in this text, but most scholars agree it is more ancient, and
has been simply put into the mouth of Thomas. Here are a
number of translations including one in Arabic.
Dr. Ernst's pages have a number more.
See http://www.unc.edu/%7Ecernst/articles.htm

I think that The Hymn of the Pearl is an ascetic allegory
Some of these ancient texts are intriguing.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

makerowner · 02-05-2008, 09:17 AM

The explanation I've seen most often is that they were recited at Passover. Seems to me like the songs could have been absorbed into the Yahweh-cult along with the festival (which probably wasn't originally associated with Yahweh IMO) and later given an allegorical interpretation to fit in with Jewish theology.

Joan of Bark · 08-28-2008, 04:30 AM

Could the Song of Songs (and Esther) be evidence for the existence of atheism in B.C. Hebrews?

Toto · 08-28-2008, 10:16 AM

Ecclesiastes is evidence of atheism at that time.

Joan of Bark · 08-28-2008, 11:16 PM

I think Song is a better argument for atheism. A collection of love poems with not one mention of God? Not even in passing?

Anyway, I'll have more to say about this book in this thread. Stay tuned, sports fans.

spamandham · 08-29-2008, 01:34 PM

Maybe the authors realized that fantasy and violence sell pretty well, but when you throw in some steamy sex scenes, you've got a best seller...

...and the Bible is in fact a best seller!

02-04-2008, 04:16 AM	#2
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Carl Ernst's pages Have a look at Carl W. Ernst's page Best wishes, Pete Brown

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02-04-2008, 06:24 AM	#3
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	Robert Price (sorry, Jeffrey) thinks it's a remnant of Canaanite religions, probably for Tammuz-Adonis and Ishtar. It eventually was sufficiently depaganised enough to fit into the biblical canon and apparently popular enough to keep.

02-04-2008, 06:52 AM	#4
Crimson Glory Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 37	Very useful, mountainman, thank you. By the way, is this text the preface or introduction to some edition of the Song Of Songs? Just couldn't get the reference. Any other sources linking the poem with old Arabian and Egiptian wedding songs?

02-05-2008, 03:17 AM	#5
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	I think it is the author Ernst making some interpretation of the Song of Songs as expressions of love. There are likely to be a number of translations. I have no idea of its transmission history from our earliest sources, but someone here may be able to advise you on that. Quite often, the compiler of texts will throw in other texts for the sake of their preservation. One of my favorites is the "Hymn of the Pearl" which was embedded by the author of the text "The Acts of Thomas" in this text, but most scholars agree it is more ancient, and has been simply put into the mouth of Thomas. Here are a number of translations including one in Arabic. Dr. Ernst's pages have a number more. See http://www.unc.edu/%7Ecernst/articles.htm I think that The Hymn of the Pearl is an ascetic allegory Some of these ancient texts are intriguing. Best wishes, Pete Brown

02-05-2008, 09:17 AM	#6
makerowner Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,962	The explanation I've seen most often is that they were recited at Passover. Seems to me like the songs could have been absorbed into the Yahweh-cult along with the festival (which probably wasn't originally associated with Yahweh IMO) and later given an allegorical interpretation to fit in with Jewish theology.

08-28-2008, 04:30 AM	#7
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Could the Song of Songs (and Esther) be evidence for the existence of atheism in B.C. Hebrews?

08-28-2008, 10:16 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Ecclesiastes is evidence of atheism at that time.

08-28-2008, 11:16 PM	#9
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	I think Song is a better argument for atheism. A collection of love poems with not one mention of God? Not even in passing? Anyway, I'll have more to say about this book in this thread. Stay tuned, sports fans.

08-29-2008, 01:34 PM	#10
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	Maybe the authors realized that fantasy and violence sell pretty well, but when you throw in some steamy sex scenes, you've got a best seller... ...and the Bible is in fact a best seller!

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