JoeWallack

J wrote up a mountainous post and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. He appointed twelve—designating them apostles[bs]—that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach and to have authority to drive out demonic superstition. These are the twelve he appointed: Vork (to whom he gave the name "The Vorkmeister"), Jake son of Jake and his brother Jones (to them he gave the name Boaner, which means [censored for sexual content], Amalek, Dr. Phil, Blind Bartholomew, "Matthew", Thomas (not sure about the name), Julian son of Agun, Diothaddaeus, Rhymon Simon and Benjamin Icarealot, who betrayed him.

J:
To the extent we can demonstrate (or at least create) a Markan Theme for The Characters in "Mark":

Named is Bad, Anonymous is Good

this strengthens the argument that "Mark" intended an Overall Negative portrayal of The Disciples.

And J said to his Disciples, "Where should we start" and the Vorkmeister answered, "At the beginning?". And J said, "And what's the first Chapter?". And the Vorkmeister answered, "Chapter 1?":

NI!V
1 "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.[a]
2It is written in Isaiah the prophet:
"I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way"[b]—
3"a voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.' "[c] 4And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with[d] water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

JW:
And so John the Baptist (JB) is the first named character to appear on The Stage. But even though JB is the Prophesied Messenger of The One, did he recognize that he had just Baptized The One? Apparently not:

"As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

This is written as a Private revelation. Now let's see how "Matthew" Baptized this account:

3: (NIV)
"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

So According to "Matthew" JB did recognize. Apparently though this was still too subtle for "Luke" who Christens the episode thusly:

3: (NIV)
"When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

This would be hard to miss unless you were temporarily distracted by praying.

What's especially interesting though is JB's subsequent reaction(s):

Matthew 11 (NIV)
2 "When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples 3to ask him, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"

and

Luke 7 (NIV)
18 "John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"

Now JB doubts that Jesus is The One. Seems Inconsistent with The Baptism stories of "Matthew" and "Luke". The similarity of "Matthew" and "Luke" usually indicates Copying from "Mark" but "Mark" has no corresponding story. Could "Mark" have Originally had a corresponding story with JB's Doubt expressed in even stronger terms which a Force more powerful than Jesus (Subsequent Christianity) deleted? Vork, you missing any chiasms?

Also note that Mark 2:18, which "Matthew" and "Luke" copied indicates that JB still had disciples after Baptizing Jesus. More evidence that "Mark's" JB doubted that Jesus was The One.

So it would appear that "Mark's" John the Baptist doubted that Jesus was The Messiah which would as Harold Ramis said in the classic "Ghostbusters", "be bad". Thus "Mark's" Prophesied Messenger for The One didn't Recognize Who he was The Messenger for. Isn't that...now what's the Word...

Vork: Ironic?

J: Riiight.



J

FAMOUS, adj.
Conspicuously miserable.

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Ben C Smith

Joe, answer one question for me: Are you the one to come, or should I expect another?

Ben.

JoeWallack

JW:
Working Theory for this Thread - The beliefs of "Mark":

1) Jesus was primarily Impossible Jesus

2) The Disciples taught primarily Possible Jesus

3) The Gospel of "Mark" intended to demonstrate that Jesus was primarily Impossible Jesus

4) The Gospel of "Mark" intended to demonstrate that The Disciples did not Understand/Believe Impossible Jesus

5) The Gospel of "Mark" is than primarily an Unhistorical Commentary on the supposed historical.

Literary Techniques employed by "Mark" to illustrate the above (all intended to Undermine the Authority of the Historical The Disciples/Followers of Jesus):

1) Set-up of Model of Successful Disciple behaviour in Discourse and Illustration of corresponding Disciple Failure of The Disciples in Narrative.

2) Association of Peter with Satan and The Disciples with Demons.

3) Use of Specific and General Identification. Specific ID, such as Name is generally Bad Association while General ID is generally Good Association.

4) Direction of Communication. Coming to Jesus is generally Good while having Jesus come to you is generally Bad.

5) Replacement of character Functions and with Unknown characters having same/similiar name.


Continuing:

1: (NIV)
12 "At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, 13 and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.
14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
16 As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 17"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." 18At once they left their nets and followed him.
19 When he had gone a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John in a boat, preparing their nets. 20Without delay he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him."

X-Uh-Jesus:

12 "At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, 13 and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.
14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"
16 As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen."

JW:
If "Mark" was originally a Play than this would be an interesting Visual Transition. Satan competes in the desert and loses but doesn't give up. In the next scene the next character we see is Peter. Satan couldn't turn Jesus so he will have to try The Disciples. Even in Narrative the Association by Location is there.

14 "After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

JW:
JB is Replaced by Jesus. My previous Post demonstrated that JB never Recognized Who Jesus was.

16 "As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 17"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." 18At once they left their nets and followed him.
19 When he had gone a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John in a boat, preparing their nets. 20Without delay he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him."

JW:
"Simon, Andrew, James and John". All Named. That's Bad.

Jesus Comes to them. That's Bad.



Joseph

Anonymous -

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JoeWallack

JW:
For those who gladly hear the Truth, here is an Exxxcellent book outlining "Mark's" portrayal of The Disciples as Total Failures and the related Cookies:



Mark's Story of Jesus by Werner Kelber

which you can buy for less than The Chief Priests paid to get rid of Jesus once (and for all).

It's a Simple, Straight-forward, Honest account which Demonstrates Peter/Satan & Disciples/Demons as The Opposition to Jesus:

"Endowed with the Spirit, he is driven into a confrontation with Satan, because a defeat of the powers of evil is, negatively, the principal objective of his mission. In whatever form and person Satan appears, Jesus will be in opposition to him...

"Immediately" on a Sabbath Jesus enters the synagogue and teaches...

The evil spirit makes the kind of identification which no human being, with one exception, will make in Mark's gospel story. There exists a bond of mutual recognition between the demonic spirits and the Spirit-filled Son of God...

"Immediately" afterwards Jesus enters the house of Simon"


JW:
The Points Kelber makes:

1) Jesus, like The Blues Brothers, is on a Mission from God.

2) Jesus is filled with the Good Spirit at Baptism.

3) The Fight is between Jesus/GoodSpirit & Satan/BadSpirit

4) "Satan" is Opposition to Jesus.

5) Peter and The Disciples Oppose Jesus.

6) The Fight is over "Possession" of Men.


For those who have ears to see and already excellent web sites concerning "Mark", let them add Kelber to their references.



Joseph

X-Uh-Jesus. Verb. A shortcut to Scriptural interpretation whereby all reaonable explanations are considered and The One Orthodox Christianity is most afraid of is taken.

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Julian

Joe,
I see και ευθυς as an overused Mark-ism. Are you saying that the construction has special meaning?

Julian

Vorkosigan

You are the one for whom heaven and earth were created.

This is an amazing thread guys, and I can't wait to read all of it this weekend.

Michael

JoeWallack

JW: (Immediately answering)
You aleph bet. (emphasis mine saith the Saith Lord)

1: (Young Doctor Young's Doctored Literal)

9 "And it came to pass in those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John at the Jordan;
10 and immediately coming up from the water, he saw the heavens dividing, and the Spirit as a dove coming down upon him;

11 and a voice came out of the heavens, `Thou art My Son -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight.'
12 And immediately doth the Spirit put him forth to the wilderness,

13 and he was there in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Adversary, and he was with the beasts, and the messengers were ministering to him.
14 And after the delivering up of John, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of the reign of God,
15 and saying -- `Fulfilled hath been the time, and the reign of God hath come nigh, reform ye, and believe in the good news.'

16 And, walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon, and Andrew his brother, casting a drag into the sea, for they were fishers,
17 and Jesus said to them, `Come ye after me, and I shall make you to become fishers of men;'
18 and immediately, having left their nets, they followed him.

19 And having gone on thence a little, he saw James of Zebedee, and John his brother, and they were in the boat refitting the nets,
20 and immediately he called them, and, having left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, they went away after him.

21 And they go on to Capernaum, and immediately, on the sabbaths, having gone into the synagogue, he was teaching,
22 and they were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as having authority, and not as the scribes.

23 And [immediately] there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out,
24 saying, `Away! what -- to us and to thee, Jesus the Nazarene? thou didst come to destroy us; I have known thee who thou art -- the Holy One of God.'
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, `Be silenced, and come forth out of him,'
26 and the unclean spirit having torn him, and having cried with a great voice, came forth out of him,

27 and they were all amazed, so as to reason among themselves, saying, `What is this? what new teaching [is] this? that with authority also the unclean spirits he commandeth, and they obey him!'
28 And the fame of him went forth immediately to all the region, round about, of Galilee.

29 And immediately, having come forth out of the synagogue, they went to the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John,

30 and the mother-in-law of Simon was lying fevered, and immediately they tell him about her,
31 and having come near, he raised her up, having laid hold of her hand, and the fever left her immediately, and she was ministering to them.

32 And evening having come, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all who were ill, and who were demoniacs,"


JW:
X-Uh-Jesus:
The use of "και ευθυς" (and immediately) is a Literary Technique for the benefit of The Audience and at the expense of the characters in the Narrative. It communicates to The Reader that All the surrounding Narrative should be thought of as a Combined Story. In a Play setting it would all be a unified Scene or Act. On a Stage you could have Peter's House next to God's House (synagogue). Note "And they go on to Capernaum, and immediately, on the sabbaths, having gone into the synagogue, he was teaching,". "and immediately, on the sabbaths" could not just be historical Narrative. It communicates two things, for the benefit of The Reader, Jesus had a habit of teaching on the Sabbath and one time/first time in this situation there was a demon. Note that in trying to Convert "Mark" into a more Historical sounding story, "Matthew" exorcised this story and "Luke" Edits to "and he was teaching them on the Sabbaths". Let The Reader Understand.

Now on to Earth, Wind & Fire's Brit, Brit, House, owww:

At the Baptism, Jesus receives The Good Spirit and he is now Forced to face The Opposition/Bad Spirit. The Key Word here, as David Mamet would say, is "House, house, house!:

13 "and he was there in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Adversary, and he was with the beasts, and the messengers were ministering to him."

Jesus First has to go to Satan's Home, the Wilderness, where he is Tempted. There he is surrounded by Satan's Disciples, the beasts. Afterwards, picture the Dahk One, wearing a Longhorn National Champions sweatshirt, New Jersey Devils Cup Championship cap, gold chains, listening to Snoop Doggy Dagon, sipping a Rusty Nail and rapping, "Yo bitch, this iz mahome. Mahome! nomesane."

23 "And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out,"

Next, Jesus goes to God's Home (on Earth), which is also Infected with Bad Spirits.

29 "And immediately, having come forth out of the synagogue, they went to the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John,
30 and the mother-in-law of Simon was lying fevered, and immediately they tell him about her,"

Next, Jesus goes to Simon's Home , which is also Infected with Bad Spirits.

The "and immediately" communicates to The Reader that all of the above should be considered together. God's home on Earth and Simon's home are both Infected with Bad Spirits. Peter's own Home for Christ's sake! Could be a Clue by Association. Later on Jesus will complain about another House in need of some Easter cleaning.

Note that "32 And evening having come, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all who were ill, and who were demoniacs," indicates a New scene.



Joseph

SATAN, n.
One of the Creator's lamentable mistakes, repented in sashcloth and axes. Being instated as an archangel, Satan made himself multifariously objectionable and was finally expelled from Heaven. Halfway in his descent he paused, bent his head in thought a moment and at last went back. "There is one favor that I should like to ask," said he.
"Name it."

"Man, I understand, is about to be created. He will need laws."

"What, wretch! you his appointed adversary, charged from the dawn of eternity with hatred of his soul -- you ask for the right to make his laws?"

"Pardon; what I have to ask is that he be permitted to make them himself."

It was so ordered.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Ben C Smith

Interesting. But how do we know that the fever in 1.29-31 was demonically caused? Mark does not tell us that the mother-in-law was exorcised, nor is any command typical of exorcisms uttered. And the possessed people in 1.32-34 are not from the house; they are from the surrounding area. Nor does the connecting word immediately imply that evil spirits have to be involved in both stories thus connected.

Ben.

JoeWallack

Mark 1: (NIV)
29 "As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew. 30 Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told Jesus about her. 31 So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them."

Matthew 8: (NIV)
14 "When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15 He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him."

Luke 4: (NIV)
38 "Jesus left the synagogue and went to the home of Simon. Now Simon's mother-in-law was suffering from a high fever, and they asked Jesus to help her. 39 So he bent over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her. She got up at once and began to wait on them."

Then J turned to his Disciples and said, "Let's see what you have learned. Who can explain why "Mark's" Jesus could only do a little healing at the bequest of Simon and Andrew? Who wants to heal Christianity and cast out it's Superstitious Demons?"



J

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

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JoeWallack

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000005ALT001007/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_007/103-9053901-8020617


JW:
Conceptual Framework for this Thread:

Key Assumption:

The Impossible Is Impossible

Development of Orthodox Christianity:

1) Possible Jesus did the Possible (Teacher)

2) The Disciples Witnessed Possible Jesus do the Possible (Teach)

3) Possible Jesus died.

4) Historical Witness, The Disciples, Evidenced that Possible Jesus did the Possible (Teacher)

5) Historical witness of 4) Evidenced into "Q".

6) Paul has Historical Evidence of Possible Jesus available to him but does not believe in Possible Jesus. Paul Believes in Impossible Jesus based Primarily on Impossible Evidence - his Imagination.

Side observation:

Since Impossible Jesus is Impossible, belief in Impossible Jesus can not start with Possible or Historical Evidence. It must start with Impossible Evidence such as Imagination. Also, it Likely Starts with a General Belief as opposed to a Specific Narrative.

7) Paul can not provide Historical Witness that Jesus did the Impossible because even Paul's Jesus could not do the Impossible for Paul to witness. This is why Paul's authentic Letters do not claim witnessing of the Impossible.

8) Paul makes a General claim that Jesus did the Impossible based on his Imagination.

9) Paul's writing is a Reaction to Real Historical Witness Evidencing Possible Jesus.

10) At the time "Mark" writes the only supposed evidence for Impossible Jesus is the General belief in Impossible Jesus like Paul taught.

11) "Mark" is aware that Jesus' Disciples taught Possible Jesus as Paul was aware before him.

12) With existing General belief in Impossible Jesus well established "Mark" is first to write Specific story of Impossible Jesus. The Source of "Mark's" Specific Impossible Jesus story is his Imagination just like Paul. And like Paul "Mark" is writing primarily as Reaction to Disciples teaching about Possible Jesus. "Mark", like Paul before him, Ignores evidence of Possible Jesus (Q).

Side observation:
In order for "Mark" to write an Impossible Specific story that might be believed he had to wait until there was an Existing Impossible General story.

The significance of the above for this Thread is that it provides the Motivation for "Mark's" portrayal of The Disicples as Total Failures. "Mark" saw The Disciples as Evidencing Possible Jesus and "Mark" wanted to teach Impossible Jesus. So "Mark's" The Disciples don't Understand/Believe/haveFaithin "Mark's" Impossible Jesus.

Two by-products of the above are:

1) It provides a Likely explanation for the start of Orthodox Christianity.

2) It may be the best Evidence for Historical Jesus (That Paul and "Mark" wrote primarily as Reactions to witness of Possible/Historical Jesus).

Theodore Weeden explains in Mark traditions in conflict that within "Mark" when Jesus speaks it's the Author talking and when The Disciples speak that is the Author's opponents talking. Weeden limits this observation to Textual analysis of "Mark" but the Textual analysis is actually secondary evidence to the Key assumption fo this Thread. When "Mark's" Jesus does the Impossible it would be Impossible for it to be based on the Historical Jesus. It could only be based on the Author.

Continuing than with "Mark's" The Disciples as Opponents of Jesus:

1: (NIV)
32 "That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed. 33 The whole town gathered at the door, 34and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
35 Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed. 36 Simon and his companions went to look for him, 37and when they found him, they exclaimed: "Everyone is looking for you!"
38 Jesus replied, "Let us go somewhere else—to the nearby villages—so I can preach there also. That is why I have come." 39So he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons."

Matthew 8: (NIV)
16 "When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
"He took up our infirmities
and carried our diseases."[c]
18 When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go."

Luke 4: (NIV)
40 "When the sun was setting, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them. 41Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.[h]
42At daybreak Jesus went out to a solitary place. The people were looking for him and when they came to where he was, they tried to keep him from leaving them. 43But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent." 44And he kept on preaching in the synagogues of Judea.[i]"


JW:
X-Uh-Jesus:
"That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed. 33 The whole town gathered at the door, 34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons"

Quite a contrast to the little healing Jesus did in front of Peter and Andrew. The Markan Themes at Works:

1) Jesus Comes to you (like he always does with Peter and The Disciples). That's Bad. You Come to Jesus. That's Good. Let The Reader who relies on 16:7 to rehabilitate The Disciples Understand this.

2) A little Faith (like Peter and The Disciples). Little miracles. Big Faith. Big miracles.

3) Named (like Peter and The Disciples). That's Bad. Unnamed is Good.

Now who could the Author have in mind, who unlike Peter and The Disciples couldn't have Jesus come to them or be Named. Maybe a Reader?

"35 Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed."

Ya gotta love the Great Ironic Contrasting style of this Author. Jesus' creates such Crowds that it forces him to go to Lonely places. Note that "Matthew" exorcises this non historical sounding peace.

"36 Simon and his companions went to look for him, 37and when they found him, they exclaimed: "Everyone is looking for you!"

Note that Simon and The Disciples want to return with Jesus to The Glory of his Healing. They're not "following" him here they're actually disturbing his prayer in order to seek their Glory and his. Note that "Matthew" rehabilitates "Mark's" The Disciples here by eliminating this part while "Luke" achieves the same by substituting "the people" for Peter and The Disciples.

Now can anyone explain why "Mark's" Jesus could only do a little healing at the bequest of Peter and Andrew?



Joseph

"If you want to Heal someone, instead of praying go to Medical School." - The Historical Jesus' Jewish mother.

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