Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 02:22 AM

''Thank you for bringing it up again, This life provides each of us with a great abundance of opportunities to help out our fellow man, while he is yet alive.''

We do, that is why some of us call ourselves (secular) humanists.

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

For FAITH to be FAITH, it is necessary that it be accepted on faith, if the miracles were verifiable, and if men could on an instant, strike up and carry on a two way conversation with their Maker, then faith would not at all be needed, because the irrefutable evidence would be present and verifiable by all.
We believe in the promise of what has not yet been seen, and hold fast hope for what we have not yet received.

What for?

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

No no no. The Vedic mss are very young. All post-Christian. The speculation is they contain teachings that are pre-Christian. No way of knowing.

Oh dear, you really have been brainwashed.

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas (again)

The Code of Hammurabi doesn't have the teaching I'm focussing on: loving one's enemies. So it's not relevant to the issue.

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 02:27 AM

''As he separated Israel from the barbarism of the world,''

So are you also re-defining "barbarism" now? The slaughter of the Amalekites and everyone else was not barbarism?

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 02:32 AM

''Galatians 6:15 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Think about what Paul means by these verses and get back with me on your view of what you think Christians think about heaven.''

I've thought: The reason why circumcision was proscribed, as well as the Jewish dietary restiction laws,-was simply so as to make the new faith acceptable to gentiles, and so gain converts.

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 02:40 AM

''Once you've done that, you start teaching them that maybe fighting isn't such a good way to live, and it isn't really about being king of the hill. And then we're on our way to the New Testament''

Tends to wear off though--that's why we still have fighting.

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 02:46 AM

'Originally Posted by Gamera
It's ironic you should cite this verse. Look carefully. Who gives the order to kill the Midianite women and children. Carefully now. Moses does. Not God.
...
Moses doesn't even say God commanded this scorched earth policy. He just gives what he thinks is the rationale for it. He personally orders them to kill kill kill. He clearly enjoyed it.
...
Moses, being a brute like the rest of us, took God's command and turned it into a scorched earth policy. You've made my point exactly.'

But Moses was the big-shot Man of God was he not? And was he not following God's commandments?--else why did he bother to go up the mountain and get them off Him? Having been educated by the Egyptians he was probably the only civilsed one amongst that rabble.

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 02:49 AM

'Originally Posted by Gamera
I think a case can be made that the teaching aobut loving one's enemy doesn't fit the Vedas. But we'll never know, since the mss transmission is so grievous. Nobody doubts that the Vedas were around for a long time. The problem is, in what form and what was later interpolated. Given the mss dates, it's impossible to say.'

Now you are re-defining the Vedas; either you agree that they (ie their content) is ancient,eg not more recent than 500BCE, or you make the absurd claim that they are post-Christian. Have you bothered to read the Wikipedia article yet?

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 02:56 AM

'Not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy.--Joshua 12:19-20'

Just like the recent Israeli/Palestinian wars, Yom kippur, the 6-day war , and the ongoing troubles. I suppose God was hardening the Palestinians hearts this time also; why does he do it? Can't he get enough of bloodshed? By the way, it is also another example of his modern interventionism (if you believe it at all, that is). Why persist in these absurd beliefs? If you surrender to us atheists now, we will be merciful (unlike YHWH).

Wads4 · 05-21-2006, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Perhaps you've never heard of the Reconstructionist Christians?

Ha, just like Sharia law. Wouldn't they just love it?

05-21-2006, 02:22 AM	#351
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	Sheshbazzar ''Thank you for bringing it up again, This life provides each of us with a great abundance of opportunities to help out our fellow man, while he is yet alive.'' We do, that is why some of us call ourselves (secular) humanists.

05-21-2006, 02:27 AM	#354
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	Gamera ''As he separated Israel from the barbarism of the world,'' So are you also re-defining "barbarism" now? The slaughter of the Amalekites and everyone else was not barbarism?

05-21-2006, 02:32 AM	#355
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	Gamera ''Galatians 6:15 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Think about what Paul means by these verses and get back with me on your view of what you think Christians think about heaven.'' I've thought: The reason why circumcision was proscribed, as well as the Jewish dietary restiction laws,-was simply so as to make the new faith acceptable to gentiles, and so gain converts.

05-21-2006, 02:40 AM	#356
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	Gamera ''Once you've done that, you start teaching them that maybe fighting isn't such a good way to live, and it isn't really about being king of the hill. And then we're on our way to the New Testament'' Tends to wear off though--that's why we still have fighting.

05-21-2006, 02:46 AM	#357
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	Gamera 'Originally Posted by Gamera It's ironic you should cite this verse. Look carefully. Who gives the order to kill the Midianite women and children. Carefully now. Moses does. Not God. ... Moses doesn't even say God commanded this scorched earth policy. He just gives what he thinks is the rationale for it. He personally orders them to kill kill kill. He clearly enjoyed it. ... Moses, being a brute like the rest of us, took God's command and turned it into a scorched earth policy. You've made my point exactly.' But Moses was the big-shot Man of God was he not? And was he not following God's commandments?--else why did he bother to go up the mountain and get them off Him? Having been educated by the Egyptians he was probably the only civilsed one amongst that rabble.

05-21-2006, 02:49 AM	#358
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	Gamera 'Originally Posted by Gamera I think a case can be made that the teaching aobut loving one's enemy doesn't fit the Vedas. But we'll never know, since the mss transmission is so grievous. Nobody doubts that the Vedas were around for a long time. The problem is, in what form and what was later interpolated. Given the mss dates, it's impossible to say.' Now you are re-defining the Vedas; either you agree that they (ie their content) is ancient,eg not more recent than 500BCE, or you make the absurd claim that they are post-Christian. Have you bothered to read the Wikipedia article yet?

05-21-2006, 02:56 AM	#359
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	Gamera 'Not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy.--Joshua 12:19-20' Just like the recent Israeli/Palestinian wars, Yom kippur, the 6-day war , and the ongoing troubles. I suppose God was hardening the Palestinians hearts this time also; why does he do it? Can't he get enough of bloodshed? By the way, it is also another example of his modern interventionism (if you believe it at all, that is). Why persist in these absurd beliefs? If you surrender to us atheists now, we will be merciful (unlike YHWH).

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