FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-01-2011, 10:18 AM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default Resurrection Source for Paul's contemporaries

I'd have to go review Doherty to see for sure, but If I'm right 1 Cor 15 is the only passage in Paul's epistles where he tells them explicity the basis for OTHER PEOPLE's claim (prior to his own) of Jesus' resurrection: ie people said they saw him because he appeared to them. (edit: 1 Cor 9 implies the same)

Yes, he talks about wisdom and revelation via scriptures/god's spirit regarding the mysteries, but none of those-if I recall correctly--clearly are referring to Jesus' resurrection being attested to by others.

Here's my point:

IF that is true, then any argument that 15: 3-11 is 'out of character' with Paul's gospel is flawed, as this passage is the only one directly addressing the issue.
TedM is offline  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:22 AM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,397
Default

Or, it is simply A case of you reading it with a later understanding and the Catholics having done a great job.
dog-on is offline  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:31 AM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dog-on View Post
Or, it is simply A case of you reading it with a later understanding and the Catholics having done a great job.
How can it be 'out of character' when there is nothing to evidence that? Where else does Paul say how OTHERS came to believe in the resurrection prior to his conversion?
TedM is offline  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:44 AM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dog-on View Post
Or, it is simply A case of you reading it with a later understanding and the Catholics having done a great job.
How can it be 'out of character' when there is nothing to evidence that? Where else does Paul say how OTHERS came to believe in the resurrection prior to his conversion?
If there were such people, probably the same way Paul says he did. Through the scriptures.
dog-on is offline  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:45 AM   #5
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
...

IF that is true, then any argument that 15: 3-11 is 'out of character' with Paul's gospel is flawed, as this passage is the only one directly addressing the issue.
The logic escapes me.

If I Cor 15:3-11 is unique in Paul's writing, being the only time he refers to Jesus appearing to anyone other than Paul, doesn't that make it out of character by definition?

I.e., Paul doesn't show any evidence of caring about other people's visions.
Toto is offline  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:57 AM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
...

IF that is true, then any argument that 15: 3-11 is 'out of character' with Paul's gospel is flawed, as this passage is the only one directly addressing the issue.
The logic escapes me.

If I Cor 15:3-11 is unique in Paul's writing, being the only time he refers to Jesus appearing to anyone other than Paul, doesn't that make it out of character by definition?
No. 'Out of character' does not refer to how often someone has done something. It refers to whether the action/saying performed is in conflict with other actions/sayings that person has done/made. If there aren't other actions/sayings to compare against then one can only be agnostic to the question of whether it is in or out of character.

Quote:
I.e., Paul doesn't show any evidence of caring about other people's visions.
But where else does Paul need to reference them in order to justify the idea that Jesus really had been resurrected, in the minds of other people?
TedM is offline  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:07 AM   #7
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
...

IF that is true, then any argument that 15: 3-11 is 'out of character' with Paul's gospel is flawed, as this passage is the only one directly addressing the issue.
The logic escapes me.

If I Cor 15:3-11 is unique in Paul's writing, being the only time he refers to Jesus appearing to anyone other than Paul, doesn't that make it out of character by definition?

I.e., Paul doesn't show any evidence of caring about other people's visions.
Well, first of all "Paul" did NOT state he had a vision of the resurrected Jesus. "Paul" claimed he was the last to SEE the resurrected Jesus.

"Paul" is claiming to be a WITNESS not a DREAMER.

Now, it is not logical at all that 1 Cor. 15 is an interpolation when the Pauline writings are INUNDATED with statements that Jesus was RAISED from the dead.

Rom 1:4 -
Quote:
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead....
Gal 1:1 -
Quote:
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)..
Php 3:10 -
Quote:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death...
1Thess 1:10 -
Quote:
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
It simply cannot be shown the Pauline writer could NOT have written 1 Cor 15, that he previously wrote that Jesus did NOT resurrect, and that the Pauline writer was an Heretic.

Virtually ALL the Epistles claimed Jesus was RAISED from the dead and is compatible with the NT Canon and the doctrine of the Church.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:15 AM   #8
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
...

Quote:
I.e., Paul doesn't show any evidence of caring about other people's visions.
But where else does Paul need to reference them in order to justify the idea that Jesus really had been resurrected, in the minds of other people?
Paul derives his authority in Rom 1
Quote:
1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life[a] was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul's authority seems to depend on the Resurrection. He could at any time have bolstered this resurrection by referring to others' experiences, but he doesn't. His authority is his own experience.
Toto is offline  
Old 09-01-2011, 11:22 AM   #9
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA, Missouri
Posts: 3,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
...

Quote:
I.e., Paul doesn't show any evidence of caring about other people's visions.
But where else does Paul need to reference them in order to justify the idea that Jesus really had been resurrected, in the minds of other people?
Paul derives his authority in Rom 1
Quote:
1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life[a] was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul's authority seems to depend on the Resurrection. He could at any time have bolstered this resurrection by referring to others' experiences, but he doesn't. His authority is his own experience.
I think you have misread that. To me it is saying that JESUS was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead.

That is how it reads to me and that would make more sense. Perhaps there is another passage more supportive that you can find..
TedM is offline  
Old 09-01-2011, 12:25 PM   #10
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedM View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post

Paul derives his authority in Rom 1

Paul's authority seems to depend on the Resurrection. He could at any time have bolstered this resurrection by referring to others' experiences, but he doesn't. His authority is his own experience.
I think you have misread that. To me it is saying that JESUS was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead.

That is how it reads to me and that would make more sense. Perhaps there is another passage more supportive that you can find..
Jesus was appointed by his resurrection, and Paul derives his authority/mission from the resurrected Jesus.
Toto is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:11 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.