Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 03-20-2011, 09:35 PM

http://pointofinquiry.org/

March 7, 2011

Zindler got started on the topic because Madalyn Murray O'Hair announced that she would show that Jesus never existed. Zinder thought this was crazy and he needed to head this off, so he went to the library to research the issue and found that there was no evidence. . .

GakuseiDon · 03-20-2011, 11:06 PM

Zindler also seems to suggest that Nazareth and maybe even Bethlehem in Judea weren't populated around the time of Jesus.

No Bethlehem at the time of Jesus? Does anyone have more information on this?

Steven Carr · 03-21-2011, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Zindler also seems to suggest that Nazareth and maybe even Bethlehem in Judea weren't populated around the time of Jesus.

No Bethlehem at the time of Jesus? Does anyone have more information on this?

Would you live in a town where all the children had been massacred?

GakuseiDon · 03-21-2011, 03:47 AM

LOL! True enough.

Tigers! · 03-21-2011, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Would you live in a town where all the children had been massacred?

What about Lidice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice in Czechoslovakia?

Toto · 03-21-2011, 06:26 AM

Zindler's clain about Bethlehem of Judea is a commonplace - note that there is a Bethlehem in Judea and a Bethlehem in Galilee.

Here's a full statement of what Zindler said:

Zindler

Quote:

"Much of the geography of the Greek New Testament is actually fictional. The sites now known as Nazareth and Bethlehem in Judea can be shown not to have been inhabited during the 'Herodian Period' when Jesus is supposed to have been living there. Moreover, important Gospel sites such as Capernaum (despite all the falsely impressive archaeological excavations at the site now called Kfar Nachum), Bethany, Bethpage, Enon, and others are actually unknown to scientific archaeology and can be shown to have been of symbolic import and were created ex nihilo by the gospel writers. (Enon, however, appears to have been the result not of design but was invented due to the fact that one of the authors of the Gospel of John was dyslexic.) Gospel geography is rendered further problematic by the fact that most of the real places of Galilee that Jesus would have had to have reacted to are not mentioned in the gospels."

From Rene Salm - http://www.nazarethmyth.info/commenthome.html

Quote:

Of course, there are those who now might argue that Jesus was actually ‘Jesus of Bethlehem of Judaea.’ Alas, the Israeli archaeologist Aviram Oshri has removed that base from the ball park too. He has shown by his own excavations that although Bethlehem in Galilee was inhabited during the Herodian period, Bethlehem in Judaea was not.

Religious Tolerance has a full discussion

Quote:

Archeological evidence:
Perhaps the most important reason to suspect the accuracy of Matthew and Luke is that Bethlehem in Judea did not exist as a functioning town between 7 and 4 BCE when Jesus is believed to have been born. Archaeological studies of the town have turned up a great deal of ancient Iron Age material from 1200 to 550 BCE 7 and lots of material from the sixth century CE, but nothing from the 1st century BCE or the 1st century CE.

Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority wrote in Archeology magazine:

" 'Menorah,' the vast database of the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA), describes Bethlehem as an 'ancient site' with Iron Age material and the fourth-century Church of the Nativity and associated Byzantine and medieval buildings. But there is a complete absence of information for antiquities from the Herodian period--that is, from the time around the birth of Jesus. [8]

According to National Geographic:

"Many archaeologists and theological scholars believe Jesus was actually born in either Nazareth or Bethlehem of Galilee, a town just outside Nazareth, citing biblical references and archaeological evidence to support their conclusion. Throughout the Bible, Jesus is referred to as 'Jesus of Nazareth,' not 'Jesus of Bethlehem.' In fact, in John (7:41- 43) there is a passage questioning Jesus' legitimacy because he's from Galilee and not Judaea, as the Hebrew Scriptures say the Messiah must be. ..."

Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israeli Antiquities Authority, says, 'There is surprisingly no archaeological evidence that ties Bethlehem in Judea to the period in which Jesus would have been born'."

" 'If the historical Jesus were truly born in Bethlehem,' Oshri adds, 'it was most likely the Bethlehem of Galilee, not that in Judaea. The archaeological evidence certainly seems to favor the former, a busy center [of Jewish life] a few miles from the home of Joseph and Mary, as opposed to an unpopulated spot almost a hundred miles from home.' In this Bethlehem, Oshri and his team have uncovered the remains of a later monastery and the largest Byzantine church in Israel, which raises the question of why such a huge house of Christian worship was built in the heart of a Jewish area. The Israeli archaeologist believes that it's because early Christians revered Bethlehem of Galilee as the birthplace of Jesus. 'There is no doubt in my mind that these are impressive and important evidence of a strong Christian community established in Bethlehem [of Galilee] a short time after Jesus' death,' he says.

Oshri, however, doubts that Bethlehem of Galilee will be recognized as the birthplace of Jesus any time soon. 'Business interests are too important,' he says. 'After all this time, the churches do not have a strong interest in changing the Nativity story'." [9]

...

[8]Aviram Oshri, "Where was Jesus Born?," Archaeology magazine, Volume 58 Number 6, 2005-NOV/DEC, at: http://www.archaeology.org/0511/abstracts/jesus.html

[9]Marisa Larson, "Bethlehem," National Geographic, 2008-JUN-17, at: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/geopedia/Bethlehem

maryhelena · 03-21-2011, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Zindler's clain about Bethlehem of Judea is a commonplace - note that there is a Bethlehem in Judea and a Bethlehem in Galilee.

Here's a full statement of what Zindler said:

Zindler

Quote:

"Much of the geography of the Greek New Testament is actually fictional. The sites now known as Nazareth and Bethlehem in Judea can be shown not to have been inhabited during the 'Herodian Period' when Jesus is supposed to have been living there. Moreover, important Gospel sites such as Capernaum (despite all the falsely impressive archaeological excavations at the site now called Kfar Nachum), Bethany, Bethpage, Enon, and others are actually unknown to scientific archaeology and can be shown to have been of symbolic import and were created ex nihilo by the gospel writers. (Enon, however, appears to have been the result not of design but was invented due to the fact that one of the authors of the Gospel of John was dyslexic.) Gospel geography is rendered further problematic by the fact that most of the real places of Galilee that Jesus would have had to have reacted to are not mentioned in the gospels."

Ah, great to hear Capernaum get a mention. I’ve had some interest in Capernaum due to how Josephus has something interesting to say about it. Seems to me that Capernaum might have more to do with a Josephan philosophical ideal than a real town....

An earlier post of mine.

Capernaum

The link to a book mentioned in that earlier post.

CAESAREA PHILIPPI: BANIAS, THE LOST CITY OF PAN: John Francis Wilson (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Steve Weiss · 03-21-2011, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

http://pointofinquiry.org/

March 7, 2011

Zindler got started on the topic because Madalyn Murray O'Hair announced that she would show that Jesus never existed. Zinder thought this was crazy and he needed to head this off, so he went to the library to research the issue and found that there was no evidence. . .

The default position for the existence of exaggerated ancient personages, especially man-gods is that they are fictional.

Steven Carr · 03-21-2011, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Zindler also seems to suggest that Nazareth and maybe even Bethlehem in Judea weren't populated around the time of Jesus.

No Bethlehem at the time of Jesus? Does anyone have more information on this?

What effect would it have on the historical Jesus of the scholars if it turned out that Bethlehem never existed?

The answer is none. They don't believe he was born in Bethlehem anyway.

What effect would it have if turned out that Nazareth never existed?

The answer is obviously - none.

If Jesus can be associated with one town that never existed, and still be a historical person, why would it matter how many towns he was associated with that never existed.

Toto · 03-21-2011, 09:04 AM

If Nazareth never existed, the case for a Jesus who remotely resembled the gospel Jesus would become very shakey. If the gospels place Jesus in a non-existent town, what else are they lying about? :constern02:

03-20-2011, 09:35 PM	#1
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Robert Price interviews Frank Zindler on the Christ Myth hypothesis http://pointofinquiry.org/ March 7, 2011 Zindler got started on the topic because Madalyn Murray O'Hair announced that she would show that Jesus never existed. Zinder thought this was crazy and he needed to head this off, so he went to the library to research the issue and found that there was no evidence. . .

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-20-2011, 11:06 PM	#2
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	Zindler also seems to suggest that Nazareth and maybe even Bethlehem in Judea weren't populated around the time of Jesus. No Bethlehem at the time of Jesus? Does anyone have more information on this?

03-21-2011, 03:47 AM	#4
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	LOL! True enough.

03-21-2011, 09:04 AM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	If Nazareth never existed, the case for a Jesus who remotely resembled the gospel Jesus would become very shakey. If the gospels place Jesus in a non-existent town, what else are they lying about? :constern02:

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.