Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 10-13-2011, 03:57 PM

Quote:

how does this make your blanket statements that Muhammed is the Arabic equivalent of Mani, the Persian(?) equivalent of Greek "paraclete" which is is equivalent to English "comforter", as if this all is related to your other blanket statement that Marcion put himself out as the Paraclete?

Sorry for my frankness. I direct this against scholars generally rather than against you in particular but I happen to be reading something similar on Turton's website - where Craig Evans tries to justify the opening lines of Mark based on early Roman inscriptions.

There is no such thing as a Greek religious concept associated with the term 'Paraclete.' It is not a pre-existent religious term among pagans. Yet it is a well established Jewish term associated with the messiah - i.e. the one who brings comfort by smashing the heads of all the enemies of Israel. When the Marcionite gospel had Jesus look forward to the coming of a comforter who will remember his words, not only did the Marcionites think this applied to their apostle but moreover it was developed in a Jewish cultural milieu (read the Apostolikon and see how rooted Pauline concepts are in inherited Jewish cultural ideas). As such it was saying that Paul was the awaited messianic redeemer.

For any uncertainty about the Jewish interest in the name comforter go visit your local branch of the Lubavitch tradition where it is applied to Schneerson and explicitly identified as the name of the messiah in the Book of Zerubbabel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Zerubbabel). In Schneerson's case as with Mani (and possibly with Muhammed) his name was changed to Menachem. I have no idea why dimunitives appear to have been used in early Marcionite culture (Marcion, Mani). With respect to whether Mani is a dimunitive of Menachem, make friends with a Jew so named.

stephan huller · 10-13-2011, 03:59 PM

On Muhammed as a name meaning Paraclete. Muḥammad is the Arabic equivalent of a title of the Menaḥem. The root is ḥet mem dalet. If you have an Aramaic dictionary look up the passive participle ḥamud and the abstract noun ḥemdah. I mean look them up in the big dictionary of Biblical Hebrew for attested usage as well as Jastrow. Note the contexts in the OT which words from this root are used. Try to find verses or groups of verses with both forms from nun ḥet mem (verbs in the pi'el and the abstract noun neḥamah) and the root ḥet mem dalet.

Don't forget although that the verb nun ḥet mem in the nif'al usually means either to change your mind or to regret having done something, and in the pi'el to comfort someone, it can mean to take vengeance in the hitpa'el or nif'al.

stephan huller · 10-13-2011, 04:01 PM

From the wikipedia page on this:

Quote:

The earliest scholar is probably Ibn Ishaq; others who interpreted the paraclete as a reference to Muhammad include Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Kathir, Al-Qurtubi, Rahmatullah Kairanawi,[citation needed] and a range of contemporary scholars.

I remember when Danny Mahar and I used to talk all the time he kept referencing how the Syriac root of the term Munahhemana (= Muhammad) appeared all throughout the Peshitta texts. I never checked it out but will do so one of these days.

DCHindley · 10-13-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Make friends with someone who speaks Arabic. Muhammed= Paraclete. Driving

My friend Mohammed Reza Seyfi, with whom I had once committed many terrorist acts of friendship, telepathically communicated to me that "Muhammad is the primary transliteration of the Arabic given name, مُحَمَّد‎, from the triconsonantal root of Ḥ-M-D; Praise."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_(name)

From Arabic محمد (muħámmad, praised, commendable, laudable), the past participle of حمد (ħámida, to praise, commend, laud, extol).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Muhammad

Oops! He's wiring me $50,000 from Iran right now (less a $40 bank fee). Gotta call the drug cartel now ...

DCH

stephan huller · 10-13-2011, 04:32 PM

I have already mentioned this before at this forum but in case you don't have any Jewish friends named Menachem, demonstrations that Mani is the short form of Menachem:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2706984/posts
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...0#.PYGA5cnWC40

In the Acts of Archelaus it is explicitly said that Mani only adopted this name after becoming the Paraclete. His original name (from memory) was Curbicus.

DCHindley · 10-13-2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Make friends with someone who speaks Arabic. Muhammed= Paraclete. Driving

My friend Mohammed Reza Seyfi, with whom I had once committed many terrorist acts of friendship, telepathically communicated to me that "Muhammad is the primary transliteration of the Arabic given name, مُحَمَّد‎, from the triconsonantal root of Ḥ-M-D; Praise."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_(name)

From Arabic محمد (muħámmad, praised, commendable, laudable), the past participle of حمد (ħámida, to praise, commend, laud, extol).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Muhammad

DCH

stephan huller · 10-13-2011, 06:22 PM

Menachem (= comforter) is said to be the name of Messiah in the Sanhedrin 98 where the words, " The comforter (= מְנַחֵם) that should relieve my soul, is far from me" (Lam. 1. 16.), are cited in proof. The whole passage is:

Quote:

How deserted lies the city,
once so full of people!
How like a widow is she,
who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces
has now become a slave.

2 Bitterly she weeps at night,
tears are on her cheeks.
Among all her lovers
there is no one to comfort her.
All her friends have betrayed her;
they have become her enemies.

3 After affliction and harsh labor,
Judah has gone into exile.
She dwells among the nations;
she finds no resting place.
All who pursue her have overtaken her
in the midst of her distress.

4 The roads to Zion mourn,
for no one comes to her appointed festivals.
All her gateways are desolate,
her priests groan,
her young women grieve,
and she is in bitter anguish.

5 Her foes have become her masters;
her enemies are at ease.
The LORD has brought her grief
because of her many sins.
Her children have gone into exile,
captive before the foe.

6 All the splendor has departed
from Daughter Zion.
Her princes are like deer
that find no pasture;
in weakness they have fled
before the pursuer.

7 In the days of her affliction and wandering
Jerusalem remembers all the treasures
that were hers in days of old.
When her people fell into enemy hands,
there was no one to help her.
Her enemies looked at her
and laughed at her destruction.

8 Jerusalem has sinned greatly
and so has become unclean.
All who honored her despise her,
for they have all seen her naked;
she herself groans
and turns away.

9 Her filthiness clung to her skirts;
she did not consider her future.
Her fall was astounding;
there was none to comfort her.
“Look, LORD, on my affliction,
for the enemy has triumphed.”

10 The enemy laid hands
on all her treasures;
she saw pagan nations
enter her sanctuary—
those you had forbidden
to enter your assembly.

11 All her people groan
as they search for bread;
they barter their treasures for food
to keep themselves alive.
“Look, LORD, and consider,
for I am despised.”

12 “Is it nothing to you, all you who pass by?
Look around and see.
Is any suffering like my suffering
that was inflicted on me,
that the LORD brought on me
in the day of his fierce anger?

13 “From on high he sent fire,
sent it down into my bones.
He spread a net for my feet
and turned me back.
He made me desolate,
faint all the day long.

14 “My sins have been bound into a yoke[b];
by his hands they were woven together.
They have been hung on my neck,
and the Lord has sapped my strength.
He has given me into the hands
of those I cannot withstand.

15 “The Lord has rejected
all the warriors in my midst;
he has summoned an army against me
to[c] crush my young men.
In his winepress the Lord has trampled
Virgin Daughter Judah.

16 “This is why I weep
and my eyes overflow with tears.
No one is near to comfort me,
no one to restore my spirit.
My children are destitute
because the enemy has prevailed.”

17 Zion stretches out her hands,
but there is no one to comfort her.
The LORD has decreed for Jacob
that his neighbors become his foes;
Jerusalem has become
an unclean thing among them.

18 “The LORD is righteous,
yet I rebelled against his command.
Listen, all you peoples;
look on my suffering.
My young men and young women
have gone into exile.

19 “I called to my allies
but they betrayed me.
My priests and my elders
perished in the city
while they searched for food
to keep themselves alive.

20 “See, LORD, how distressed I am!
I am in torment within,
and in my heart I am disturbed,
for I have been most rebellious.
Outside, the sword bereaves;
inside, there is only death.

21 “People have heard my groaning,
but there is no one to comfort me.
All my enemies have heard of my distress;
they rejoice at what you have done.
May you bring the day you have announced
so they may become like me.

22 “Let all their wickedness come before you;
deal with them
as you have dealt with me
because of all my sins.
My groans are many
and my heart is faint.”

The Comforter is thus the one who brings relief to the disposed people of Judah.

stephan huller · 10-13-2011, 08:24 PM

Sanhedrin 98b also makes reference to another scripture to establish that the messiah would also be called 'comforter':

Quote:

Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah,for it is written, "Because Menahem [‘the comforter’ ], that would relieve my soul, is far" (Psa. 72:17)

I am sure for many non-Jews this still doesn't make any sense so let me provide a relatively recent newspaper article for some assistance: http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/Pri...aspx?id=228357

Here there is a reference to the messiah again being associated with the destruction of the temple:

Quote:

Despite our history of exiles and persecutions, belief in the Messiah remains one of our deepest sources of national resilience. The sages of the Midrash express this in a most poetic fashion: “The Messiah was born on Tisha Be’av [the ninth day of the month of Av, the yearly fast for the destruction of both Holy Temples], and Comforter [Menahem] is his name.”

Let's now look at what the Lubavitchers did with this tradition in the Likkutei Sichot an anthology edited by Menacham Schneerson:

Quote:

To explain: Av is the name by which the month is referred to in the Targum.[373] Nevertheless, it is Jewish custom -- and "Jewish custom is considered as the Torah itself"[374] -- to bless the month with the name Menachem Av. (Menachem means "the comforter.")

Moreover, this is not merely a custom; the phrase Menachem Av is acceptable as a means of dating legal documents and bills of divorce. Furthermore, even if one writes the word Menachem alone, the document is acceptable, for "it is well known that the month of Av is referred to as Menachem."[375]

The difference between these terms is obvious. The month of Av is connected with unfavorable events, and thus: "When Av enters, we minimize our joy."[376] Therefore the word menachem is added as a prayer that G-d provide comfort for the negative influences associated with the month.

The name Av also has a positive connotation, meaning "father." Indeed, it refers to a deeper dimension of consolation than does the word menachem. Thus our Sages comment:[377]

It is the nature of a father to show mercy, as it written:[378] "As a father has mercy on his children." And it is the nature of a mother to comfort, as it is written:[379] "As a man who will be comforted by his mother." G-d promises: "I will be like both a father and a mother."
From this, we see that comfort is connected with Binah (the mother), while the influence of Chochmah (the father) is even higher. Thus we see that there are three levels: the negative dimensions of Av, the comfort stemming from Binah, and the positive influence of Chochmah.

393 Targum Yonason, Bamidbar 13:25.
(394 See the Jerusalem Talmud, Pesachim 4:1; Tosafos, Menachos 20b, entry nifsal uses the expression: "the custom of our ancestors is...." See also Minhagim Yeshanim Midura, p. 153; Maharil as quoted by the Ramah, Yoreh De'ah 376:4.
395 Pischei Teshuvah, Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 126:12. Knesses HaGedolah, Even HaEzer 126:41.
396 Taanis 29a. See the Korban Nesanel to Rabbeinu Asher's rulings on that passage. See also the AriZal's interpretation of the word avel. (Note Meorei Or and other sources cited in Yair Nasiv.)
397 Pesikta deRabbi Kahana, commenting on the verse (Yeshayahu 51:12): "I, I am He who will comfort you."
398 Tehillim 103:13.
399 Yeshayahu 66:13.

There are no names given in the Pentateuch and as a result the Samaritans simply refer to them as 'first month,' 'second month,' 'third month' etc much like our 'September,' 'October,' 'November,' 'December' come to think of it. The Jews learned to adopt pagan names and one is to name the fifth month 'Av' = Father. This was the month in which the temple was destroyed and tradition again associates the appearance of the messiah at this event and later in this month. More significantly for our purposes the whole month is also associated with the act of 'consoling' or 'rest.'

The month is called 'Menachem Av' because this is the month that Israel will receive rest or consolation because the comforter (= the messiah) will appear. While the day the temple was destroyed is said to be the saddest day of the year, the sabbath immediately follow is called Shabat Nachamu = Sabbath of Comfort based on Isa 40. http://www.hebcal.com/holidays/shabbat-nachamu

The point then is that the appearance of one called 'the comforter' cannot be coincidence in the gospel. The gospel writer not only knew that the temple was going to be destroyed (because the narrative was written at or just after the destruction) but he also sets forth the coming of the very messiah (= the comforter) who would console the people after the event. The name cannot be coincidental. Moreover Jewish tradition also identifies the name of the figure who destroyed the temple as apostomos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostomus which Marcus Jastrow the author of the authoritative Jewish Aramaic dictionary suggests that it may be a corruption of ἀπόστολος ("apostle"). Very few Jews have any working knowledge of the complexities of early Christianity but clearly if we know the Marcionites identified their apostle as comforter it is hard to shake the idea that he was both the messiah who destroyed the temple and consoled its people.

There has been nothing written on who the Marcionites thought the Catholic 'Paul' was. The one thing we know for certain was that they rejected ALL of Acts most especially the parts which claim that he was a rabbi named Saul.

stephan huller · 10-14-2011, 12:52 AM

And then for those who are sitting at the edge of their seats in anticipation - let's see if it is probable that menachem was the concept behind the Christian figure of the Paraclete. In Lamentations 1.2:

Quote:

בָּכוֹ תִבְכֶּה בַּלַּיְלָה, וְדִמְעָתָהּ עַל לֶחֱיָהּ--אֵין-לָהּ מְנַחֵם, מִכָּל-אֹהֲבֶיהָ: כָּל-רֵעֶיהָ בָּגְדוּ בָהּ, הָיוּ לָהּ לְאֹיְבִים

Κλαίουσα ἔκλαυσεν ἐν νυκτί, καὶ τὰ δάκρυα αὐτῆς ἐπὶ τῶν σιαγόνων αὐτῆς, καὶ οὐχ ὑπάρχει ὁ παρακαλῶν αὐτὴν ἀπὸ πάντων τῶν ἀγαπώντων αὐτήν· πάντες οἱ φιλοῦντες αὐτὴν ἠθέτησαν ἐν αὐτῇ, ἐγένοντο αὐτῇ εἰς ἐχθρούς.

In Lamentations 1.16:

Quote:

עַל-אֵלֶּה אֲנִי בוֹכִיָּה, עֵינִי עֵינִי יֹרְדָה מַּיִם--כִּי-רָחַק מִמֶּנִּי מְנַחֵם, מֵשִׁיב נַפְשִׁי; הָיוּ בָנַי שׁוֹמֵמִים, כִּי גָבַר אוֹיֵב

῾Ο ὀφθαλμός μου κατήγαγεν ὕδωρ, ὅτι ἐμακρύνθη ἀπ' ἐμοῦ ὁ παρακαλῶν με, ὁ ἐπιστρέφων ψυχήν μου· ἐγένοντο οἱ υἱοί μου ἠφανισμένοι, ὅτι ἐκραταιώθη ὁ ἐχθρός

Close enough ...

stephan huller · 10-14-2011, 01:26 AM

Quote:

It was long disputed among the learned, why the great Persian heresiarch assumed the name of Mani or Manes, and why his followers asserted that this name proved him to be the promised Comforter. Archbishop Usher has completely explained both difficulties though the circumstance seems not to be generally known ; he has shown that Mani in Persian, and Manes in Greek, is precisely the same as the Hebrew Menahem, or rather Menachem (מְנַחֵם) 'the Comforter.' This also explains the reason why the Manichees rejected the Acts of the Apostles ; the account of the descent of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost, completely destroys the pretensions of Mani to be the promised Paraclete or Comforter [William Cooke Taylor, The history of Mohammedanism, and its sects p. 101]

Usher was led to his conjecture by noticing that Sulpicius Severus gives Mane as equivalent to Menahem in 2 Kings

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10-13-2011, 03:59 PM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	On Muhammed as a name meaning Paraclete. Muḥammad is the Arabic equivalent of a title of the Menaḥem. The root is ḥet mem dalet. If you have an Aramaic dictionary look up the passive participle ḥamud and the abstract noun ḥemdah. I mean look them up in the big dictionary of Biblical Hebrew for attested usage as well as Jastrow. Note the contexts in the OT which words from this root are used. Try to find verses or groups of verses with both forms from nun ḥet mem (verbs in the pi'el and the abstract noun neḥamah) and the root ḥet mem dalet. Don't forget although that the verb nun ḥet mem in the nif'al usually means either to change your mind or to regret having done something, and in the pi'el to comfort someone, it can mean to take vengeance in the hitpa'el or nif'al.

10-13-2011, 04:32 PM	#15
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I have already mentioned this before at this forum but in case you don't have any Jewish friends named Menachem, demonstrations that Mani is the short form of Menachem: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2706984/posts http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...0#.PYGA5cnWC40 In the Acts of Archelaus it is explicitly said that Mani only adopted this name after becoming the Paraclete. His original name (from memory) was Curbicus.

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