Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 02-27-2012, 10:37 AM

AA, I think you are going around in circles. Certainly you are not the only person permitted to make inferences and assertions. The point is that OF COURSE the Pauline ideas contradicted normative Jewish beliefs, but so did Samaritans and Saducees and the DSS. So what? He had his own way of looking at things, his own interpretations of scriptures, etc.
Take a look at your old friend Justin to see how a Christ believer reinterpreted verses from the Greek to accomodate the belief in the dead and resurrected messiah which contadicts normative Jewish ideas of the messiah. But so what?

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

AA, there is nothing unusual about the writer of Galatians acknowledging other trends in the Christ movement.
But there is no indications that Scripture referred to anything other than the Jewish Scriptures. "Paul" doesn't quote anything else.
He just says that his gospel revelation is exclusive and is the true one.
There were other preachers. But of course it is only in Galatians that he claims an exclusive revelation.

Of course the Pauline writer referred to Christian Scripture.

There is NO Hebrew Scripture that states "Jesus died for OUR SINS".

There is NO Hebrew Scripture that states "Jesus was resurrected on the THIRD day.

The statements made by the Pauline writer in 1 Cor 15. are BLASPHEMOUS and CONTRARY to Jewish Laws found in Hebrew Scripture.

We can't be going over the same thing over and over.

Either you present the evidence or stop making UNSUBSTANTIATED assertions.

You ought to very well know that there is NO Hebrew Scripture that states Jesus DIED for OUR SINS and was resurrected on the THIRD day.

Hebrew Scripture states that the Sacrifice of Bulls, Goats and even birds are for Atonement of Sins.

The Jewish writer Josephus Corroborates that Jewish LAWS found in Hebrew Scripture requires the Sacrifice of Bulls, Goats and even birds.

See Antiquities of the Jews 3.9.3

Quote:

3. The sacrifices for sins are offered in the same manner as is the thank-offering. But those who are unable to purchase complete sacrifices, offer two pigeons, or turtle doves......... But if a person fall into sin by ignorance, he offers an ewe lamb, or a female kid of the goats........ But if any one sin, and is conscious of it himself, but hath nobody that can prove it upon him, he offers a ram........... And if the rulers offer sacrifices for their sins, they bring......... for sacrifices a bull or a kid of the goats, both males.

Please, please, please!!! We know the Jewish LAWS in Hebrew Scripture had ZERO to do with a Third day resurrected Jesus

Again and again, the Pauline writer claimed he PERSECUTED Christians and IDENTIFIED them by NAME, Andronicus and Junia.

1. But, now the Pauline writer claimed he MET THREE characters found in the Jesus stories, Peter/Cephas, James and John. Galatians 2

The written statements from the Pauline writer are EXTREMELY easy to comprehend.

1. There were Christians before Paul began to preach the Faith.

2. Paul PERSECUTED the Faith.

3. There were Christian Scriptures with a story of Jesus that he DIED for OUR SINS and resurrected on the THIRD day.

4. PAUL claimed he was in the Presence of Peter/Cephas, James, and John in Jerusalem and these characters found ONLY in CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES.

The Pauline writer, the Persecutor, gave more than enough information to show that he was NOT the first to preach the FAITH, that he was LAST to be visited by the resurrected Jesus and that he knew of Christian Scriptures.

Duvduv · 02-27-2012, 10:39 AM

So that it is entirely possible that the author of Against Heresies known as Irenaeus may have had a copy of a gospel called Luke that at that point did NOT give him reason to believe that Jesus was crucified when TIberius was emperor. Who knows whether his Luke was the same as the canonical Luke, whenever Against Heresies was actually written?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You cannot assume that the versions we have now for the books in the New Testament are the original edition. There were many opportunities for later scribes to go through and harmonize details like this.

Chili · 02-27-2012, 10:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

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You have ZERO sources of antiquity that identified the author of Luke and Acts as a woman.

But there are many clues in gLuke and Acts which lead to a Roman woman from Philippi Macedonia.
All my arguments are here: http://historical-jesus.info/appf.html then search on 5.

It is impossible for a female to have noetic vision for she is the gnosis of the gnostic who has been crucified to reach it. To attibute gnostic writings to a female would be to say she has been crucified as one not banned from Eden and that would give her a full hysterectomy and you would have a zombie left instead.

Toto · 02-27-2012, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

...
When Paul was ready to preach Jesus there ALREADY were Christian churches, Christian people and Christian Scripture based on the very words of the Pauline writer.

...

Were there? They didn't call themselves Christian. How do you know what they believed or what scripture they read?

outhouse · 02-27-2012, 12:11 PM

LOL just ask him for the same proof he demands in every post.

there were no christians before the temple fell

aa5874 · 02-27-2012, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

AA, I think you are going around in circles.

Certainly you are not the only person permitted to make inferences and assertions. The point is that OF COURSE the Pauline ideas contradicted normative Jewish beliefs, but so did Samaritans and Saducees and the DSS. So what? He had his own way of looking at things, his own interpretations of scriptures, etc......

You are the one who consistently makes unsubstantiated statements. Please show precisely where it is claimed in Hebrew Scriptures that Jesus DIED for OUR SINS and was resurrected on the THIRD day.

Please Identify the character called Jesus Christ in Hebrew Scripture--book, chapter and verse.

It is completely implausible that there were Christian churches and Christian people BEFORE Paul but NO Christian Scriptures.

You don't seem to understand what is WRITTEN evidence, WRITTEN statements and what are inferences.

The WRITTEN statements in the Pauline writings STATE that there were Christian Churches, Christian people BEFORE Paul.

Now, it must be MOST reasonable that there were Christian Scriptures BEFORE Paul.

In "First Apology", Justin Martyr did claim that the 2nd century Christian Churches did USE the "Memoirs of the Apostles".

First Apology"

Quote:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits...

It makes ZERO sense for there to have been Christian Churches and Christian people BEFORE Paul and yet had NO Christian Scripture until Paul wrote a letter.

Again ONLY Christian Scriptures mention a character called Jesus who died for OUR SINS and was resurrected on the THIRD day.

The Pauline writings are AFTER Christian Scriptures were ALREADY written. 1 Cor.15

aa5874 · 02-27-2012, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

...
When Paul was ready to preach Jesus there ALREADY were Christian churches, Christian people and Christian Scripture based on the very words of the Pauline writer.

...

Were there? They didn't call themselves Christian. How do you know what they believed or what scripture they read?

How do you know anything about Paul?? Where did Paul claim he wrote any letter to churches BEFORE c 70 CE?

Only Tertius admitted he wrote the letter to the Romans.

Galatians 1:22 NIV

Quote:

I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ

Now, what does the "churches in Christ"--Muslim churches, Pagan churches??? It means Christian Churches

[Galatians 1:23 NIV

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They only heard the report: "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."

What did people BELIEVE when they preach the Faith BEFORE Paul??

Paul was a Muslim??? It is most obvious that they preached the Christian Faith.

Romans 16:7 NIV

Quote:

Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Andronicaus and Junia were people in Christ BEFORE Paul---they were Christians before Paul in the Pauline writings.

The earliest record of Christians in non-apologetic sources are from about the mid 2nd century in writings atttributed to Lucian and Celsus.

aa5874 · 02-27-2012, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

LOL just ask him for the same proof he demands in every post.

there were no christians before the temple fell

Pricisely!!

Once you are SATISFIED that there were no Christians before the Fall of the Temple then Paul is a fraud. The Pauline writer gave the bogus impression that there were Churches in Christ and PEOPLE in Christ that were persecuted for their Christian Faith but it is TOTAL fiction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

..."there were no christians before the temple fell

Bernard Muller · 02-27-2012, 03:15 PM

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there were no Christians before the Fall of the Temple

Then you have to eliminate the testimony in that regard of Tacitus and Suetonius.

aa5874 · 02-27-2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

Quote:

there were no Christians before the Fall of the Temple

Then you have to eliminate the testimony in that regard of Tacitus and Suetonius.

Tacitus and Suetonius wrote ZERO about Jesus. You very well know that.

The NT Canon is about Jesus not Chrestus.

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02-27-2012, 12:11 PM	#375
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	LOL just ask him for the same proof he demands in every post. there were no christians before the temple fell

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