Clivedurdle

Might the koran be a collection of these poems?

Did the conquerors of North Africa and Spain explicitly call themselves followers of Allah and Mo?

Did not someone they conquered write something?

Laura D.

I agree. I too have learned these facts. But can we represent them as true for the purpose of this discussion? I say this, because our knowledge of our knowledge of these poetic forms generally comes from sources dating to after 750 CE.

Our sources of information for the 500 to 622 period are as follows:

1. Poems and fragments of verse, which though not written down at the time were preserved by oral tradition and preserved often 200 to 300 years after the fact, e.g., Kahlil Ibn Ahmad's 791 CE record and the Mu'allaqaat, which was put together by Hammad Al-Rawiya within a decade or so of 772 CE (and contain's the famous Qasida of Imru Al-Qays).

2. Proverbs contained in collections such as the circa 900 CE collections of Mufaddal Ibn Salama and Maydani (circa 1124 CE).

3. Traditions and legends, which we find in works such as Kitabu Al-Ghani (Book of Songs) by Abu Al-Faraj of Isfahan (circa 967 CE). The original writings upon which these are based have been lost (compare this to the state of the record for ancient biographies such as Plutarch's biography of Alexander the Great).

You are correct.

God bless,


Laura

Laura D.

It is a theory. But we would need to prove this affirmative assertion.

We have records that show those moving into Egypt and North Africa cited Muhammad as the prophet of God. But can we assume those referred to an historical figure vice a mythologized perfect male archtype?

Again, we may have citations to Muhammad as the prophet of God. But can we assume they referred to an actual historical figure? Is it not equally legitimate to theorize a pre-Islamic myth-figure manufactured by the raid commanders (who we know historically were not the "dead" Muhammad). They could have used a Muhammad-rubric to unify their troops under a cobbled together series of myths and legends.

I now have some sympathy for AT Fomenko's new chronology theory?

God bless,



Laura

megalo

It isn't uncommon to use adjectives as nouns in Arabic. In fact pick out any other name and I guarantee you it's a title, including mine. Mohammed yet had several names; his heavenly name supposedly is Ahmed. He was referred to by Taha and Sal'aam nad probably many others. The latter has no basis in the Arabic language.

megalo

Th Quran assumes it's being protected by Allah, so it doesn't matter really.

megalo

With the difference that "his" burial place can be found in Madina. Now trying to prove that the person resting there is the "founder" of Islam would be as much fun as trying to prove that "you" are who "you" really are. "You" :devil3: have much more physical evidence to start with in the case of "Mohammad" including his alleged body. Given the restrictions imposed by Saudi authorities, I doubt you will ever have access to them though.

post tenebras lux

That might be true today in muslim dominated arabic, but was it true then? Were there any Mohammed's before this one?As is mine - which has lead to me being chased down the street by angry muslims who felt that my given name was disrespecting their religion.Thanks, do you have any references/linkies for his heavenly name being 'Highly Praised', um, sorry, Ahmed (other than ones which refer to the Koranic verse 61:6^*)?

So, what's his name?
His heavenly name is highly praised.
Yes, OK: but what's his name?
His heavenly name is highly praised.
Yes, you've said that, but what is this name that is highly praised? :huh:

* And even this koranic verse is not uniformally translated, viz:
Because the arabic for 'The Praised One' is Mohammed :huh: So is this verse claiming that his name is Mohammed or Ahmed? :huh:

megalo

I assume your questioning whether adjectives were used as names then as well? Well, that isn't true today because many people give their children westernized names rather than traditional arabic names, which are picked from history or simply made up. Your argument is because it's uncommon, it could'nt have been real, which isn't true. Shakira is an uncommon arabic name, but it's her "real" name.. and it is an adjective. Any matches between the meaning of the name and the character coud have been purely coincedental or simply the person could have lived up to that name. It happens.

The source I found claims the rarity of that name. I don't know how they got the numbers, but it's said that only 8 people were named Mohammed before he was given that name by his grandfather. I'll take it as the least number of people, since they didn't keep records. There simply could've been more that weren't accounted for, you wouldn't know. Who knows what goes through your parents mind when you are born, but when asked why he, Abdul Mutalleb, simply answered "I wanted him to be praised." Now that I think of it, he should've said "Well, I'm just a one weird person" hehe

I'd buy it actually, I even plan on naming my child Xerxes, I can't even pronounce it



Another source, Sira Halabiya, claims that his mother planned on naming him Ahmed. It doesn't prove it's heavenly, of course, but that he could've had that name for 7 days before his granfather settled on Mohammed, and that Mohammed was actually his real name.


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It could be both. I know of someone called Chris officially and goes by Bear with friends.

post tenebras lux

I wasn't arguing that "because it's uncommon, it could'nt have been real", I've just never heard of Mohammed being used as a given name before him. You appear to have; would you be so kind as to provide a linky to a list of these eight 'pre-Mohammed' Mohammeds?

I take it that this is the same grandfather of Mohammed who 'just so happened' to have the given name of 'Old Man'? No doubt that was an uncommon name at the time as well.I do hope you're joking or is Colin Powell (who can't pronounce either of his names 'correctly') a role model of yours?Again, would you please be so kind as to provide a linky to where Sira Halabiya said this. Plus a linky to a good - in your opinion - short biography of Sira Halabiya.Excuse me? Are you totally missing the point? Three translations of the same Koranic verse (61:6) cannot agree if that koranic verse states that his name is Mohammed or Ahmed! :huh:

I had hoped that you might have shed light on this 'translating problem', or even that you could have provided us with a transliterated version of the verse with the problem word highlighted.

Solo

Moslems traditionally face Mecca during prayer - practice known as qibla. By tradition it comes from Mohammed himself who in Medina received a revelation which changed his original qibla of Jerusalem to the Kaaba in Mecca. That qibla was (at any point) in the direction of the prophet's residence is simply not an Islamic tradition. In fact, it would be considered an act of idolatry.

Jiri