DramaQ

Moreover, it could only be by supernatural means than an "inerrant" document of any kind could be produced. If that was the case, what sort of supernatural power would create an inerrant document and then fail to maintain "perfect" copies. For that matter, why even create a "perfect" original if no one alive will ever see it?

CX

Did I? I've gone over some of my old notes and do not have confirmation that it's 50% or less. I do know that before the 3rd century we only have about 30% of the NT attested in MSS. Now it's just a matter of determining what's in those 28 MSS from the 3rd century. All of them are fragmentary, some quite small indeed, so I'm comfortable saying less than 60%, but I'll have to get back you with an exact figure.

Amlodhi

Hi CX,

Maybe this will be of some help.

The following tables and descriptive lists are taken from, "The Text of the New Testament", Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, William B. Eerdmans Pub., Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1995.

Table 3, from page 57, Distribution of Greek manuscripts by century:

Early 2nd century..........p52
2nd century.................p90
c. 200.........................p32, p46, p64/67, p66
2nd/3rd century............p77 , 0189 (Uncial)
3rd century..................p1, p4, p5, p9, p12, p15, p20, p22-23, p27-30, p39-40, p45, p47-49, p53, p65,p69,70,p75,p80,p87,p91, p95, 0212, 0220.
3rd/4th century............p13, p16, p18, p37-38, p72, p78, p92, 0162, 0171


From "Descriptive List of Papyri" (ibid. pg. 96) + Uncials

Century................listing.........Contents of fragment/s

2nd......................p52.............John 18:31-33 & 37-38
...........................p90.............John 18:36 & 19:7

c.200...................p32.............Titus 1:11-15 & 2:3-8
...........................p46.............Pauline epistles- Rom. 5:17 - 6:14; 8:15 - 15:9; 15:11 - 16:27. I Cor. 1:1 - 16:22. II Cor. 1:1 -13:13. Gal. 1:1 - 6:18. Eph. 1:1 - 6:24; Phil. 1:1 - 4:23. Col. 1:1 - 4:18. Thess. 1:1;1:9-2:3,5:5 - 9 & 23 - 28. Heb. 1:1 - 13:25.
...........................p66.............John 1:1 -6:11; 6:35 - 14:26, 29-30; 15:2-26; 16:2-4,6-7; 16:10 - 20:20,22-23; 20:25 - 21:9
...........................p64/67.........Matt. 3:9 - 15; 5:20 - 22,25-28; 26:7-8,10,14 -15,22-23,31-33

2nd/3rd ..............p77..............Matt. 23:30 - 39
...........................0189............Acts 5:3 - 21

3rd.....................p1................Matt. 1:1 - 9, 12, 14 - 20
..........................p4................Luke 1:58 & 59; 1:62 - 2:1, 6 & 7; 3:8 -4:2, 29-32, 34-35; 5:3-8; 5:30 - 6:16
..........................p5................John 1:23-31, 33-40; 16:14-30; 20:11-17, 19-20,22-25
..........................p9................I John 4:11-12, 14-17
..........................p12..............Heb. 1:1
..........................p15..............I Cor. 7:18 & 8:4
..........................p20..............Jas. 2:19 - 3:9
..........................p22..............John 15:25 - 16:2, 21-32
..........................p23..............Jas. 1:10-12, 15-18
..........................p27..............Rom. 8:12-22, 24-27; 8:33 - 9:3, 5-9
..........................p28..............John 6:8-12, 17-22
..........................p29..............Acts 26:7-8, 20
..........................p30..............I Thess. 4:12 - 5:18, 25-28; 2 Thess. 1:1-2
..........................p39..............John 8:14-22
..........................p40..............Rom. 1:24-27; 1:31- 2:3; 3:21 - 4:8; 6:4-5, 16; 9:16-17, 27
..........................p45..............Matt. 20:24-32; 21:13-19; 25:41 - 26:39. Mark 4:36 - 9:31; 11:27 - 12:28. Luke 6:31 - 7:7; 9:26 - 14:33. John 10:7 -25; 10:30 - 11:10, 18 - 36, 42 -57; Acts 4:27 - 17:17
..........................p47...............Rev. 9:10 - 17:2
..........................p48...............Acts 23:11-17, 23-29
..........................p49...............Eph. 4:16-29; 4:31 - 5:13
..........................p53...............Matt. 26:29-40; Acts 9:33 - 10:1
..........................p65...............I Thess. 1:3 - 2:1, 6-13
..........................p69...............Luke 22:41, 45-48, 58-61
..........................p70...............Matt. 2:13-16; 2:22 - 3:1; 11:26-27; 12:4-5; 24:3-6, 12-15
..........................p75...............Luke 3:18 - 4:2; 4:34 - 5:10; 5:37 - 18:18; 22:4 - 24:53. John 1:1 - 11:45, 48-47; 12:3 - 13:1, 8-9; 14:8-30; 15:7-8
..........................p80...............John 3:34
..........................p87...............Philem . 13 - 15, 24 - 25
..........................p91...............Acts 2:30-37; 2:46 - 3:2
..........................p95...............John 5:26-29, 36-38
..........................0212..............Matt. 27:56 w/parallel - Fragment of a Greek gospel harmony
..........................0220..............Rom. 4:23-53

3rd/4th..............p13................Heb. 2:14 - 5:5; 10:8-22; 10:29 - 11:13; 11:28 - 12:17
..........................p16................Phil. 3:10-17; 4:2-8
..........................p18................Rev. 1:4-7
..........................p37................Matt. 26:19-52
..........................p38................Acts 18:27 - 19:6, 12-16
..........................p72................I Pet. 1:1 - 5:14. II Pet. 1:1 - 3:18. Jude 1-25
..........................p78................Jude 4-5, 7-8
..........................p92................Eph. 1:11-13, 19-21. 2 Thess. 1:4-5, 11-12
..........................0162...............John 2:11-22
..........................0171...............Matt. 10:17-23, 25-32. Luke 22:44-56, 61-64

Amlodhi

Sparrow

Yes, it's of some help. Thanks for posting this. :notworthy

I wonder how many of the super-christians around here realize that the total content of the NT comfortably dated to 199 CE and prior is (drum roll, please) 7 verses. Even including the next six papyri, that's not much on a percentage basis.

Gives new meaning to the phrase 'You've got to want to believe".

CX

The plain fact is that very few people, Xian or otherwise, have an interest in text criticism or papyrology, so they are completely unaware what is the state of the evidence. Ultimately the text we have reconstructed cannot be traced back further than the codices of the forth century at around the time Xianity gained imperial support in the Empire. This is not surprising given the nature of the development of Xianity and the media involved. Even so, if one subscribes to belief in a supernatural deity, it is not hard to believe that the sacred text one has at present is his word. Such is not an argument for scholars and students of text criticism. It is a theological issue.

addendum: the complete text is untraceable before the 4th century.

CX

Acutally, I have all this information the problem is the amount of tedious cross-checking etc. required to derive statistics.

Amlodhi

Hi CX,

I suspected you might. However, I didn't know if you had it all compiled and at hand. I just happened to have the list stored in my documents so it was no trouble to post it.

You do have your work cut out for you. Also, truly accurate statistics will likely be impossible to obtain as many of the fragments contain considerable lacunae and thus require a conjectural reconstruction of some of the verses they are said to contain.

Good luck,

Amlodhi

Sparrow

I don't mean to imply that that theism is false because the texts aren't old enough or complete enough. It's quite true that someone who believes that God is truly omnipotent can clearly believe that God has transmitted the true interpretation of his word directly into their brain without even commiting it to paper. And is that any stranger than believing that John was keeping a journal scroll as the events unfolded directly in front of him?

I'm one of those people who like to work with facts and if you confront me with enough facts that contradict my currently held view, I'll change my mind. Thanks for some more facts.

CX

I didn't mean to imply you did. You and I both know that theism is false because it's silly.


This is probably heading in the direction of a philosophical discussion, but I think the ultimate question here is whether or not it is reasonable to rely on the Xian bible as an accurate reflection of the Xian god's "word". If we believe that people in the 4th century had a good handle on it than yes. Furthermore the question of how to determine what is objectively real is largely a metaphysical one. If one accepts that objective reality can be apprehended through religious inspiration than all bets are off and meaningful discussion is at an end when interacting with someone who's worldview is based on empirical and logical criteria.

Sparrow

I didn't mean to imply that you meant to imply that . . . Oh screw it! Yeah - What you said.

Fortunately there are very few who rely solely on religious inspiration for all their decisions.

So to turn this back into the direction of BC&H and the original post, it would be interesting to see if any of you can post the text of John 18:31-33 as it is rendered down through the ages. Or pick some other passage if more interesting. But it could be instructive to see what changes, if any were made to specific passages.